Designing Your Work + Values Ecosystem with Nathan Bransford

Nathan Bransford is the writer's champion, offering A to Z advice for writers about the craft of storytelling, finding an agent, navigating the publishing industry, and everything writers need to make their dreams come true. Don't leave if you're not a writer, though! This episode is for anyone who loves the stories people tell about their varied career paths. Nathan has amazing advice about determining your values and making them the pillars to build your work and life around. Everything that matters to us can exist in one integrated ecosystem that we build and refine as we go. Nathan believes in Extreme Calendaring to make this possible, i.e., if it's important to you, put it on your calendar. Nathan also has a sad/sweet childhood story about the beloved author Roald Dahl. And, along with all the talk of meaning and values, Nathan and I speak tongue in cheek about the sweet, sweet joy of money. It's all in this amazing episode with author, editor, and uncredited life coach Nathan Bransford.

Chapters
00:23 Who is Nathan Bransford
3:34 Nathan's early career as a literary agent
8:11 Writing dreams and Roald Dahl!
11:51 What is a literary agent?
13:27 Starting his website/insider tips for writers
18:21 Leaving the literary agent gig
24:42 Work Pivots - CNET, Bridgewater, and more
36:15 Riding the waves vs. charting a course
41:25 A new career driven by values and meaning
47:36 Building the ecosystem (it's all connected)
52:10 Prioritizing meaning (with values pillars)
57:21 Nathan's editing/coaching services
1:04:39 Putting creative time in the ecosystem
1:11:10 What Nathan does for fun (World Cup!)
1:15:18 Why do we write?
1:22:35 Be the protagonist/hero of your own life
1:34:32 Extreme Calendaring (It worked for me)

Links:
Nathan's website: https://nathanbransford.com/
One of my favorite posts by Nathan, How To Live Creatively: https://nathanbransford.com/blog/2023/01/how-to-live-creatively

Nathan's How To Write a Novel: https://nathanbransford.com/blog/2013/10/my-guide-to-writing-a-novel

Nathan's Jacob Wonderbar series: 

• https://nathanbransford.com/blog/2010/08/jacob-wonderbar-and-cosmic-space-kapow
• https://nathanbransford.com/blog/2012/03/jacob-wonderbar-for-president-of-3
• https://nathanbransford.com/blog/2013/02/jacob-wonderbar-and-interstellar-time

Rock Paper Tiger by Lisa Brackman: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/209739/rock-paper-tiger-by-lisa-brackmann/

We Need Diverse Books: https://www.diversebooks.org/

Pitchfork (where Nathan finds new music): https://pitchfork.com/best/

I Do This For a Living is independently produced. 

@serenitylive

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Welcome to I Do This For a Living, a show that asks how we can spend as much time and energy on the things that matter as we do on the things that pay. Sometimes the things that matter pay, and we'll talk about that too. I'm Serenity Bohan. I am your host because I wanted work I love. And that's what this podcast has given me. Today's guest is Nathan Brantsford. I have been following him online for almost 20 years. He is a champion for writers. He talks about the craft of writing, uh, the publishing industry, how to navigate it. I mean, everything A to Z that you need to know if you have any interest in being a writer. Uh, Nathan Bransford has it. I send people to his blog all the time. And now I'm so excited for people in my world to get to know him. The conversation was everything I want for this show. He has so much great advice about our values, what matters to us, our work, our life, and how to make it all as cohesive as possible. I think you're gonna love it. Nathan, welcome to my show. Thank you so much for being on my show. I am really happy to have you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

So excited. I really am looking forward to people meeting you. I have sort of known you for um online at least for almost 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, almost 20 years. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

And you know, the people close to me, they have no idea who you are. So I'm really looking forward to this. Um, introducing one of my favorite online people to people um in my life and people who are listening. So, what I want you to start with by way of introduction is tell the people what is your industry and what do you do in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

So I'm in the publishing industry and specifically the book publishing industry. I'm an author myself. Uh, I've published three novels um with Penguin, uh, which formed the Jacob Wonderbar trilogy for eight to 12 year olds. I also self-published um how to write a novel and how to publish a book, which are behind me for those watching on video. Um and uh and yeah, and but my primary business is oriented toward helping authors navigate the publishing process, whether that's through consulting and coaching on the process or editing manuscripts. And so I help authors improve their writing craft, get their manuscripts ready for submission to agents or to self-publish, um, and answer a lot of questions that people have along the way because it's a very kind of confusing industry that has a lot of strange customs, unless you've been in the industry as I was, which we'll get to at some point. I used to be a literary agent. It can be very opaque. And so I try and help authors put their best for foot forward and hopefully ultimately achieve their dreams as writers.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

And you do it very well. That is what yeah drew me to your writing, and I have stuck with it, and it's it is so helpful. And I get people now and then in my life, hey, I have this book or I want to do some writing, and I'll be like, go to NathanBransford.com. I mean, that's it. It's like it's point, point, point. I have nothing to say to them except go read Nathan. You it is A to Z, as my um Canadian counterparts say, um, about writing and publishing. It's brilliant. So you mentioned literary agency. You were a literary agent when I first learned to view. But I don't know what came before that for you in career-wise.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Uh nothing. U university. It was my first job out of college, actually. And so um, yeah, so I majored in English. And so um people were pretty much like, Are you gonna be a teacher? Are you gonna go into publishing? Um, I ended up going into publishing, and um, I got very, very lucky because um this was to date myself. Uh, this was in the aftermath of the dot com collapse, and the economy was really bad, and it was really hard to find a job at the time. And I didn't want to move to New York because I I didn't really have a lot of money and I didn't, I, you know, New York's very expensive. And so I ended up moving to San Francisco, which wasn't very expensive at the time, which is kind of shocking to even think about. Um, and I I pretty much lucked into one of the only good publishing jobs that were available in San Francisco, certainly at the time, as the assistant to the president of Curtis Brown Limited, which is a very reputable, very strong literary agency. So I sort of kind of like managed to find my way to uh a dream job um and worked my way up for a couple of years until I was allowed to take on clients. And I ended up ended up working there for eight years.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Oh my God. Your first job out of college. I have so many thoughts on that. That's amazing. Did you know what a literary agent was?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

I did, yeah. I did. I took um I took a class with uh with a uh really incredible writer, Vikram Vikram Seth, who wrote A Suitable Boy and and um The Golden Gate. He's like really, really amazing writer. And I really enjoyed the editing part of um creative writing classes where I would sort of give people feedback and help them edit their work. And so I talked to Vikram and I was like, I think I want to be an editor. And he was like, Why would you want to do that? Why would you why would you want to do that? He was like, Go, no, because it you go into your basement, your parents' basement, and lock yourself in there until you've written a novel. You need to focus on writing. And um, I was like, no, no, no, no, I think I want to do this. And so I was actually kind of really contemplating working in the publishing industry in in one way or another. And um and yeah, I ended up with a with a a great job and a great mentor. And so that's that's how it came about. But I did I did kind of I had done some research and had conversations with writers about the industry before I jumped in.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, definitely. Do you still talk to Thickrow?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I haven't been in touch with him, no, since since college. I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

So he was basically saying, forget all that crap. Don't even go get a job. Get the book written. Get a book written.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

And I mean, and that advice I think really stuck with me for a long time because I didn't fancy myself a very strong writer. Um I didn't get into any advanced creative writing classes. Everyone rejected me um for like all the prestigious creative writing stuff. I just no one I got no traction. But um, but I don't know, Vikram uh he saw something which I really deeply appreciate and he really encouraged me with my writing. And in the beginning days in working in book publishing, I really fancied myself as as one of those book publishing people who wasn't working on a novel. Um, but then kind of the the the writing bug bit me and um and I started getting going. And yeah, that encouragement really kind of stuck with me for a while.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

I love that story. I'm so I'm so glad I asked more about that. Um let's go even earlier to when you were a kid. What were your what was your understanding of work, what work is, and how soon did you have glimmers of this is where I'm gonna head?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, so I mean, my understanding of work was really shaped by my dad. My dad's a farmer, uh mostly rice. And so he definitely does not have anything in the way of like a traditional career. Um you know, he'd be up at four in the morning, he um and you know, he'd be asleep pretty early and just just sort of living with the sunlight. And um and he but he also had a very flexible schedule. Um and like he could go to my basketball games and stuff because like, you know, the the the rice was just growing itself. You didn't need to be there. Um so um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So it was Where was this? Where did this be? Uh Northern California.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

So actually, people don't always know there's a lot of rice grown in California. In fact, most of the sushi that you eat in the United States is California rice. It's uh Japanese varietals um grown in California. Um and so yeah, I think um I I I had uh stirrings of wanting to be a writer when I was very young. I actually a couple years ago found a letter I wrote to Rald Dahl when I was 10 um saying it looks like really like I think like really hard to be a writer. How do you, how do you do it? Um and uh so yeah, I I kind of I had stirrings, but I kind of cycled like everyone, I kind of cycled through a bunch of different things I wanted to potentially do. But the writing one really kind of stuck with me. And when I got to college, I just sort of kept gravitating to English classes and film classes and sort of went with that. And just that's there's just been this pull for me towards books for and creativity in some form for my entire life.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

I think that's fascinating that you knew as a kid it looks hard to be a writer. I don't think I had that intelligence, Nathan. I was like, I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

I was kind of surprised seeing that too. So of course I completely forgot the the letter, but um but yeah, I think I I had because I think I'd tried writing some things and I think I'd engaged with how hard it was at the time to write something that that didn't feel copying and derivative. And so uh I was very interested in how writers kind of came up with um all this original stuff, which is really hard to do when you're a kid. I didn't realize it at the time, but it's really hard to do when you're when you're a kid. Um, and his books always struck me as so rich and imaginative. A funny thing that happened about this, I have to tell you the story too, and that's somewhat tangential. So we this is part of a fifth-grade assignment. We all write letters to our favorite authors, and then people start getting the letters from our favorite authors back. Some people get sometimes they're just like little postcards or whatever. But um, one day um my teacher pulled me aside and she's Nathan, I have some I have some news for you. Rald Dahl died. He died like right after. And so, of course, I'm like, I'm in fifth grade, I'm like 10 years old. I'm like, oh my God, I killed Rald Dahl. And so it was this we had this whole macabre kind of like vision of like him like reading my letter and like killing over dead. Uh I'm sure he never saw it.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

But the last beautiful thing. He's like, nothing is gonna get better than this letter from little Nathan Branson.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, incalosa, California. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Oh, that's just a tragic story. Were you the only one who didn't get a letter back from your favorite author?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

No, others didn't too, but I'm pretty sure I was the only one whose uh author died shortly after they did so.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Who mean that's um that's quite a story. That's a crazy story. Yeah, I did a little um class kind of thing in my son's first grade classroom when he was much younger than he is now. And uh I said to them, What do you think is the hardest thing about being a writer? And one of the kids raised his hand, raised, I don't I think it was her, raised her hand and said, Being doing the writing, like writing.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

It's like, yes, I can't believe you. Yeah, I mean, that's very wise because as a kid, I always thought it was the hard part was thinking of ideas because that's what was hard for me as a kid. Um as an adult, that's the you know, it's the easy part. You have ideas just like, I mean, we can ideas are a dime a dozen. It's it's the sitting down and writing that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

It's the crap.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Um, and so it kind of flips. It's definitely not how I imagined it as a kid.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, yeah. I didn't, I just had no concept. I thought it would be so easy. I just I would I read these books I loved, and I thought I could reproduce that kind of thing so easy. That took me a while to get that message. So you and the kid I talked to, smart kids. Um Okay, so we we really didn't talk about this. What is a literary agent? So talk about your being one, what is it? And you ended up leaving that after eight years, I guess, to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, I did. So a literary agent, it's kind of like a sports agent for books or kind of any kind of agent that sort of represents authors and then makes sales upon their their behalf. And so essentially what the sale is is they take book projects, whether a completed novel or a book proposal if it's nonfiction, shop it around to various publishers who then will make an offer if they're interested in publishing it. And then the agent negotiates the offer and negotiates the deal and negotiates the contract and things like that, and kind of manages an author's career over the long haul, hoping that they will grow. Uh agents work on commission, and so it's it's typically 15% of whatever they sell, but like it's they work on spec, and so they'll take on clients for zero money, and then if they sell their book, they get 15% of whatever deal results. Um it's a really interesting business because um major publishers these days won't accept unagented submissions, and so agents are a crucial layer between kind of the writing public and um publishers, which until you know the rise of e-books and self-publishing were pretty much the only way to get a book into the world. And so they've kind of fulfilled this crucial kind of gatekeeping taste and mismix of taste and commerce over the years. Um so yeah, I saw I did that, I did that for I worked at the agency right eight years. I agented for six of that.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Okay. When did you start your blog for writers?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

So I started my blog after I started taking on clients. And it was I was, you know, faced with um a real significant challenge. Every every agent starts with zero clients and you have to build your list, and it's really, really difficult. It's been particularly difficult because um the you know, older with technology has allowed older, more established agents to take on more clients. And um, and so it's it was just so hard to build my list. And so I I I felt like there was a great deal of potential out there in the in the in the United States. And at the time, um the agency I worked for, Curtis Brown, didn't even have a website, very prominent what uh um literary agency, and it was very common. I think William Morris at the time just had um a website that was just like it just said like William Morris, basically. And now if I'm not mistaken, it was one of those, like eight William Morris or ICM. It was very, it was so big, it's like just like the most minimal, minimalistic website you could possibly have. And the the the the sort of perspective on that was the people who need to know who we are know who we are. Right. And there are a lot of assumptions baked into that. A lot of assumptions baked into that. And the assumptions are that anybody who is truly dedicated will find their way into networks that put them in contact with an agent. Or they'll, you know, go to the library and and check uh reference this book called LMP, which is this massive phone book essentially of publishing professionals and will somehow magically find the right agent. And it did happen. I mean, like um S.C. Hinton, who wrote The Outsiders, um I saw her query letter to Curtis to an agent at Curtis Brown, which she wrote when she was when she was 16. So people did somehow nav and she lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma, so like didn't know anybody. So it's people did somehow navigate it, but like um it was a very opaque process. And so I felt like blogs were beginning to kind of take off, and I saw an opportunity to provide authors with information um and on navigating the process as as a also as a way to raise my profile within the industry and find find new clients that way. And it it worked. It really worked.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

That's so wild because writers think they don't need me, I need them. And you as an agent knew I need them. I need them. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Definitely. I and and at the time there was um there were a couple kind of pioneers of it. There was like Miss Stark and Kristen Nelson doing pub rants. Um but I really also saw an opportunity to sort of take aspiring writers seriously because there was a lot of kind of like at the time the culture was kind of like making fun of new writers and kind of being harsh and kind of um and I I just felt like you know, there's a lot of well-intentioned people out there who just don't have the information. And that's all they need. It's just they just need information, whether they're from underrepresented backgrounds, whether they're places like my hometown, you know, like um, and um, you know, I didn't I didn't know anybody before. I I didn't have connections. I I have I've anything I've done is is just sort of um through brute force. Um so um so yeah, it it ended up really kind of taking on a life of a life of its own at uh at the time because of that culture of um of kind of like the opacity, intentional opacity, people thought it was crazy in the industry. They're like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Like, why are you doing this? Like, why would you want to like open yourself up to like the unwashed masses? Um thankfully, thankfully, an exception to this was my boss and mentor at the time. He was extremely supportive and very he had a lot of foresight around it, and which I really appreciate. Otherwise, it would probably never gotten off the ground if I didn't have his support. But there were definitely people who were like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 17:28

I'm working really hard not to be insulted by the publishing industry, us unwashed masses.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

But it's I mean, it yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

No wonder I'm so grateful for you. Like you were voiced in the wilderness. Like you can come to this industry. I I tried to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I definitely tried to be. I mean, and they're I mean, and this is of course the tip of the icebergs of the assumptions that the publishing industry was making at the time to say nothing of like all of the um the choices that they were making around the way that they are were acquiring and marketing books by uh underrepresented groups of all kinds, um, and which are of course in fits and starts it is maybe kind of sort of getting better, but it's ca there there's always been all of these like baked-in assumptions into the industry that have been pretty pernicious. This was just this was just one of the easier ones to to pop just by putting information out there.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

So did you like being a literary agent?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

There were parts of it that I definitely liked, and there are parts of it that I didn't like. Uh what I really liked was the process of working with authors and sort of taking on books that I believed in, um, working with the authors and to make the books better, and then watching the result. That that that was extremely, extremely gratifying. Another book behind me for the video people. Um, you can see the rock paper Tiger by Lisa Brockman, which came to me as uh a query letter that was um, it was like five different kinds of books all in one. And we we really worked together over the course of I think several years to turn it into this kind of cracking uh international suspense novel. And it and it did great. And it became one of Amazon's top books of the year, and and um that was an enormously gratifying process to help be there as Lisa's career took off. Um what I didn't like were some of the things I've I've referenced, some of the attitudes of the of the industry. It's a very um it's there's a bit of a monoculture of a very kind of like suburban Ivy League uh East Coast, um kind of very white, just very like very not diverse in thought or in actual diversity, really. And it's and it has been that way for the entire time I've been connected to the business. Um, I also really was frustrated by the sort of resistance to innovation and resistance to change and resisting to just trying new things. And um, I just didn't feel a true cultural fit within the business. And the last thing that really tipped me over was just the sheer amount of forces that were outside of my control as an agent. So I could, I could represent um um, you know, the best writer, the best book. But if a publisher didn't see what I saw and if a pu and and see what I saw and publish it well, um it would just flowed completely out of my hands. And I I I realized that I could work, be as smart as I am or not smart or whatever, just be who I am, work really hard and get lucky and have a massive bestseller that completely changes my career, or not have that and struggle and just be like financially precarious for the foreseeable future. And that sort of lack of, or at least that sense I had of lack of power over my outcomes um kind of drove me crazy. And it kind of led me to wanting to try different things.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

It was purely commission being a literary agent.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

There's no way So at the time of starting out, um I was on I was on salary at $23,000 a year when I started in San Francisco. Um and so it was I I I was always just struggling to get to get by and to make it all to make it all work. Um and by the time that I left, I still wasn't making very much money, but it was a mix of kind of um uh commission and then like because I at the time I was re representing a lot of audiobooks for the for like the estates. So like this I represented the state of Winston Churchill. I sold a lot of audio deals for other agents and things like that. So I was bringing in commission on the top of my own sales, which um I was a I was a young fledgling agent. They weren't huge. Um and so yeah, it was always I was always kind of in this state of kind of precariousness of fighting. financially.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Can I ask you a really well, I'm gonna ask you a really n kind of nerdy question. Well it's not nerdy or I would know the answer. Uh so I'm reading the journals again of LM Montgomery, the author of Anna Grand Gables. When she sold Anna Grand Gables to LC Page Um she it it's beautiful to read because she's such a classic first time author. It's a she says it's a terrible deal, but I'm scared of losing my chance. So I'm gonna take it. And what she says that was terrible is that she was gonna get 10% off of the wholesale. Is that terrible? Is that I don't understand that.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

10% of the off of the wholesale. Does it I I think she might mean the the the retail price the wholesale price. The wholesale yeah that's not a that's not a phrasing I'm I'm familiar with by type of the business.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I'm wondering if the what the publishing company sold the book to published to retailers.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

I'm thinking it's a way of of saying 10% of the of the retail price. But wholesale price no no no no wholesale it must be the 50% discount that's what I'm thinking. Yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm guessing it was more like a 5% retail. Because let's okay so the de the the discount is typically 50% the from from the list price two bookstores book and then um but typically authors are for hardcover authors are paid um usually 10% of the list price to start for hardcover. And so she must she may be getting like five percent what if it's the wholesale price that the that the bookstore pays. But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah weird.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

And then she mentioned in advance did she did she get in advan in an advance?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

No advance. I don't think there was an advance. But see this is also locked into it for five years too.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

That's actually not so bad because actually most most times there's uh most new books are sold as term of copyright um uh deals uh unless the rights are reverted if they go out of print. But this partly is what led led to the rise of literary agents um in the 1800s into the into the 20th century. There's a new book that just came out that I haven't read yet about it, but I've wrote some reviews of the book that kind of summar summarize some of the key early players in um uh but yeah I mean it it's it was really amazing working at Curtis Brown because Curtis Brown's over 100 years old. And so I go back into the old royalty books and see like handwritten royalty sort of ledger lines for like Rebecca, you know, and like and all these old, old, old books that um are classics and you and just this what what a storied history of um it was really amazing to work there.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

So you're kind of not it's not financially what you need or want. You've got these little qualms.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

How long was it that you were kind of thinking I need to do something else and then it was sort of the last the last year of of of a of agent where I just I just sort of was like not in a good place kind of in my life wasn't in a good place mentally just felt like I was spinning spinning my wheels just had some prof like professional setbacks like authors that I um was was trying to champion who just weren't catching on for reasons I found completely inexplicable. I was vindicated because one of these is now a big bestselling author. But um yeah I just was like I I I was like I I was just I was really kind of ready for something new. And what came along was um an opportunity to be CNET's uh first social media manager. So CNET is a tech news and reviews website and I'd walk by their offices um all the time because I I lived nearby them and um they they always looked like they were having a blast. They always always having like like they would they'd always be outside like having these parties and like food trucks and all this stuff. And I was like man these CNET people they look like they're having a good time. And so yeah at the time CNET didn't have a social media manager and it was I I think it was like 2010 uh somewhere around there and um and I had more followers on Twitter than CNET had and I was like guys you should I should not have more followers than you and it was a really really scary scary scary big leap because I was known online for but for and my blog was pretty big at that time probably at its peak um and you know I had 100,000 followers however many on Twitter and everyone just knew me for books my my own books and then as an agent and my whole identity over the last eight years had been wrapped up in books. Um but I just I just felt like I had to go. And so I I had the time I had like 20 clients I had to call all of them and tell them I was leaving the business, sending their careers into kind of various like not not like into a bit of limbo. I made sure that they landed with I I found everyone an agent within Curtis Brown that I could and some were still with Curtis Brown some was doing great like um so yeah it it all ended up working well but it was seriously like breaking up with 20 people in a row like to having 20 breakup calls one day.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

You could have just left them.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I could have just pieced out sure but I wanted to leave everyone in a good place.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

You left everyone settled with someone that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah um I I think almost everybody I wasn't they're they're a handful that wasn't able to but I did the best I could um and yeah and so then I what excited me out CNAT was tech. Like it was and it it was new and just especially at the time it was a very exciting time for tech. It was the early days of the iPhone it was um um before kind of social media turned toxic it was just a really exciting time to be in San Francisco and um um and to be be trying something totally different. So I made that big leap which was really terrifying. Sometimes I still look back like what if I just stuck it out in agenting what if I had you know um you know stayed in and kind of stayed the course um but I th I think I just had I had I know I just had to do it. I I can't like I can't like really look back. I'm sure because I'm sure that eventually some of the clients I was working with they did go on to become bestsellers and it I my career probably would have really turned a corner if I just stuck around a couple more years. Not that my career was bad. It was fine but I would I would probably would have gotten to an another level in a couple years. But I I'm I'm still really grateful I I took that leap because it set me on a on a really interesting course where I got to see a lot of new and different things so no regret.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

I love that I I love how scary of any questions it's like oh impossible not to kind of be like man what if I just impossible not to wonder but it's also impossible to know like there's no knowing that other path because you didn't you didn't take it what so what did you think what did you do with your NathanBransford.com at that time? I mean I kind of remember but were you thinking oh God what am I going to do?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

I have this whole I kept it a presentation as a literature Yeah I kept it going because I still had my own my own books were starting to come out around that time. So I still had I still had the vantage point of an author to go on and I so I tr I I transitioned it more toward writing craft. Um and yeah I really I I really kept it going for years. I kept I kept the pace up too I I was working on the on the weekends and at night and um I don't know how I did it um honestly but but partly contributed to a big, you know, a big I I kind of really crashed after that whole transition. I got divorced like it was a real kind of like period of um of real kind of life rebuilding when I got to CNET um which was great. It was it was really fun working there. Everything I saw was real. Yeah it was so fun I was so thankful for that. But like the rest of my life was a disaster but um but CNET was great.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Didn't even go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Oh um but yeah no I just I I kept I kept it going with the books and the and and the blog um and pretty much never let up until I arrived at a different company meetings later that I'm sure we'll get to did the um did the blog get more techie though?

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Didn't you sometimes do kind of some tech announcement sort of things?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah I wrote for CNET a little bit um just um on some of those social media related um um um kind of coverage so I wrote about Facebook some and then I also did I also wrote about books for CNET. So there was you know it was kind of the rise of easy ebooks at the time and there are a lot of questions around why ebooks were so expensive and so I wrote an explainer for for CNET on on why why that is. So yeah there was definitely bl blending and mixing and um and yeah I really enjoyed that job. CNET and the people were amazing it was it was it was a really great job. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

So somewhere in there you wrote Jacob Wonderbar before you left Liddit Yeah so I wrote that while I was an agent.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

It actually wasn't my first novel or even first thing I wrote first I wrote a screenplay and I entered it in some competition and I think it did it did pretty well I think it was like a finalist I was like oh maybe I can do this this writing thing. Then I wrote a trant I changed but then I didn't know anyone in in Hollywood. I had no intention to live in LA and and at the time I was in San Francisco so I was just like what am I doing? So I I turned that into a book tried to find an agent didn't sell um and then I or didn't find an agent even I had an agent who wanted me to revise it and I just didn't have the inclination or energy even though I knew he was right. So I had this idea about a kid who was trapped on a planet full of substitute teachers and that's where substitute teachers come from. And I just like I was like I think I'm gonna go for this I felt really crazy every step of the way I wrote it. But yeah, I was agenteing at the time but this was also amid the um the financial crisis of um um around 2008. So there was really not much to do as an agent because there publishers were just a mess and there you know my my boss basically advised me to kind of shut down new submissions for the rest of the year. And so I had all this time on my hands that I which was new for me, which I then kind of plowed into um Jacob Wonderbar. And then yeah and did that ended up working. And so these books were kind of be beginning to come out uh but yeah that I wrote the first one and the first half of the second one and then my life fell apart. And so I really kind of like I really kind of had to really gr grit through it for to um to to finish the second one and to write write the third one because I had pretty tight deadlines too.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Oh so the contract was for a trilogy?

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah. Yeah oh gosh well it was initially for two that that became free but yeah uh luckily my agent I called my agent when I s when I when I started going through the divorce and asked her to push back my delivery date. So if there are any any and she worked on that and got it all taken care of for me. So any writers out there talk to your agent when you experience major life challenges their agent can probably help you. Don't if I just held it in I would have just somehow had to like finish like on in a rush amid like a total crisis.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Oh my gosh. And you're okay now you're in a new job too. Yeah yeah sometimes bumpy. But you did really like how long did you do CNET?

SPEAKER_00 33:35

So I I did I was there for I want to say I'm gonna have to look at my own LinkedIn to remember my career.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

I think I was worried sometimes Nathan that this podcast is like a job interview which is the last thing I would want it to be but well I no no no totally but I um I really enjoy hearing about other people's career trajectories particularly because mine's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

I was at um I was at CNET for about three or four years, I want to say and then I was recruited for a new job and at the time also I'd moved to New York with CNET. CNET had a New York office and um it was one of the difficulties of of doing social media was um news would break on East Coast hours. I'd be like in bed and looking at my phone and just be like, oh no I'm like you know um one of those early tiny iPhones too nonetheless. Um and uh so yeah so I I moved to the East Coast um but I was recruited for an opportunity to a really exciting opportunity to to basically create a new online community from scratch for freelancers union which is uh a nonprofit that is an advocate for independent workers and freelancers. Uh it was a I I wasn't going to be a freelancer it was a real it was a paid salary job. Uh but I got I got you know a huge raise and uh went to um went to work in Brooklyn um for um for freelancers union and built an online community for them for for scratch as well as managing kind of communications and I had this whole team um what did I do? Communications, blog and newsletter, social media, online community and then kind of also was a bit of a because I had some product management experience from CNET, I helped kind of be a product manager for their insurance marketplace and things like that. So I did a bunch of different things.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

So you got recruited like someone said hey Nathan we see you we want you over here.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah an agency sort of connecting you with it with the yeah no I mean it honestly it was it was pretty amazing particularly because like I went from um uh from just you know scraping by as an in in book publishing and doing I I I mean by the standards of publishing I was doing pretty good like I but but not by pretty good by like New York and San Francisco standards. And I just like I really was kind of craving the feeling of not having to worry as much about money all the time. And so getting into these being recruited for these jobs and they're like look at the salary we think we can get you and I was like holy crap are you kidding me like I could like I could save money on that um so uh yeah so the next two jobs that I got were I I was I was recruited for. And I think that there are pros and cons with that. I mean I think that they both were incredible opportunities. Um but I wasn't necessarily I was sort of riding the wave more than I was charting my own course. Okay. And okay. So this the next job that I got offered like two years later was with Bridgewater Associates, uh, which is the world's largest hedge fund. And they have a very, very famous culture of radical transparency, radical honesty where pretty much the worst thing you can do is is is lie or or shade the truth. And um I was really fascinated by the place. I was really fascinated by the idea of of seeing inside those walls and um and it was another huge salary salary jump for me. And so I by the so I I left publishing and I think it was like seven years I want to say it was like no six or six maybe six years later I had contupled my salary.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Like and it was just like oh my gosh now now not only am I comfortable like I you know what am I even doing with with this um and so yeah it was just like and it was just fascinating it was a fascinating learning opportunity. I wanted to see inside those walls I wanted to like understand how the place worked. And so the job that I was hired for was a new way of innovating recruiting through social networks. And so I I kind of built this program for them where I sort of refined the way that they identified talent. And I was there for I wasn't there that long so I ended up getting laid off about in a about a year and a half to two years after I started. But I did have this moment at the hedge fund where I mean I gone from the world of books to like the biggest hedge fund in the world. And I was just like and I I I sort of was at this concert um at an employee party and like one of my favorite musicians steps on stage I fought by as a surprise and I'm drinking a top shelf whiskey and I'm just like what am I doing? Like where in the hell am I? I'm in Connecticut and looking around I'm like who are these people like and I found this like commodities kind of guy who is like a a farmer for a rancher from Texas and I sat down next to him because he at least seemed like someone that I would I kind of knew from my past and I was just like what am I doing? Um and so that kind of yeah I think that the the the it was amazing kind of getting pulled into this slipstream of capitalism which can be very rewarding but I it it definitely led me to a place where I was ended up being very confused where I was and what I was doing.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Oh okay I have a question coming up later that's gonna help that. So I'm trying to decide whether to I I'm gonna go ahead and say that I've kind of written this book about my work story. I did it basically just to work out my work story. What the heck is my work story? But um I, you know, I would I would change jobs always really kind of looking for different or better meaning typically is what I looked for in jobs is I don't like this about this job, this one won't have that. I don't like this about this job this one won't have that. So I'm gonna go to that. But what I found is that you could not guess those things didn't tend to be a fix. Like I really want to work around more people it's really not or anyway but what always was true is if it was more money, it did make a difference. And I so I kind of have this job on right learned. Yeah. It's like money is the meaning of life. I'm tu say that tongue in cheek but you really do begin to realize like that's the only thing you can know for sure about the next job is if it's going to make you more financially stable. But but it is fascinating to me that you did have that little sense of what the hell am I doing here? Like even in a lot and it was a little bit of a lost feeling.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Like maybe I'm not supposed to be but yeah it was definitely like a little bit of an out of body experience where it was just like I didn't recognize where I was and when what I was doing. I mean it I I really enjoyed working there. Like there's a lot of like a lot of different stories about working up Bridgewater. Like for what it's worth I thought it was awesome. I really enjoyed it made some of my best friends there who are still some of my best friends and it was a fascinating fascinating place. So no regrets working there. However it was a big signal that my life had kind of like blown off course and I I was not in a place where I really recognized myself. And I was so by the time the layoff came out came along I was I was like ready to go and try to find the right thing I didn't realize it was a layoff layoffs are not fun.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

How long were you without work?

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah it was my it was my first one well in some sense uh I've never had a real job since oh I love it. Yeah yeah so I mean that's that's that's of course not true I I work very hard but um but yeah so I I I was laid off like I had you know very generous severance and so I had a little bit of time to sort of in cobra so I did a little bit of time to figure things out. And I really cycled through what it is that I I wanted to do. Um I kind of started looking for jobs and you know I I'd reached a level in my career where there there's not a huge amount of jobs that that like are you know at the right level. Um and so it take a little while for them to come along. I came really close with this job at Google and uh I think I was like the I was the second choice and the first person got it. Um and I I wonder a little bit if if I'd gone down that path what that path might have looked like because I probably would have taken the job. Um but um I ended up getting uh offered a job at Uber to uh to run uh their to to help run their tech blog um and it would have meant going back into the guy going back into an office it would have um meant sort of back into another kind of intense corporate culture um and I just sort of felt like I couldn't do it. I I just I just like I couldn't see myself going back into into a corporate office nine to five anymore. So I took one of the bigger one of several really big risks that have laid the groundwork for my current life um and one is I went back to the the hiring manager and suggested that we make it in a consulting arrangement. That way I could like you know contribute I could um uh I could help him build the blog and help him build out his team and and help him with strategy and things like that. But I wouldn't have to go into the office, I wouldn't have to move um and I'd have time for creative projects. And so uh for a while because I was working on a novel that I badly wanted to finish. I'd been it it was the third version of that screenplay that I wrote but completely different way. And I really wanted to write it, wanted to have time to write and so for the first time in my life I really took a risk for creativity. And so during that time I stitched together different corporate freelance roles, consulting with a couple startups, I consulted with um Freelancers union again because one of my uh close friends was then now running freelancers union and so I was helping her with strategy and things like that. So I was stitching together a life that was very unconventional and kind of beginning to um step off the the sort of career treadmill, which was utterly terrifying. Completely terrifying, making this all sound so easy was completely effing terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

It was terrifying, but so I have such a similar layoff story. I got laid off from a job in market research and um immediately went to some ideas that seemed safe. Um so a university I'd worked for before, applied there, thought I could get a job there so easy. And the I ran into that same thing you're talking about with the levels. I had been a director, quote unquote, in market research. And so I tried to get into this kind of ground level role. And the second interviewer this in the second interview said, Why would you want this job when you and I'm like, I it's like, how do you get to that without saying, Because my I have payments on my Buick. That's why.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

You know, his prey it was flattering. He thought I was too good for his job, but that doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Because they would react it totally.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

So then I had this uh old um client who was talking to me about possibly taking on contract work. And I am kind of telling my husband, like, there's this part of me that that sounds fun. The riskier choice sounds kind of fun because it seems unlimited. Like, where could it go from there? Did you have that sense of, ooh, or was it like, well, uh, no, I just don't want to go in an office and I'm gonna try this?

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yeah, I'd love to say that it was like some nice, neat, orderly process, but like it was a lot of soul searching. It was a lot of um just um a lot of why am I doing this? A lot of why am I doing this was a really, really big one. And I think that's that's something I've that's a voice I've learned to shut out through time. Um because I'd be like, I think I just want to like work on books more. And that's like, why do you want to do that? That's just it's crazy, that's crazy. Why, why, why do you want to do that? Um, and I think if I dispense with that and just try and just like whatever I do. So like, who cares where it comes from? There's no, there's no like answering that question doesn't really get you very far. Um, and worrying about it, I think was a lot, was a lot of wasted energy. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to write the the novel Life Short. I think I would have really felt very, very um like if I saw a bus hurtling toward me, I'd my last thought would be like, why didn't you finish that novel, you idiot? Bam, you know? I didn't want that feeling. Um so I so I was like, whatever, I'm gonna go for it. And so yeah, I started and um I I missed a minute. One of the other things I did during this time was I also started taking on freelance editing projects and started building up my author services career. And what I eventually be grew to realize is that I could do the things I love in a way that maximizes the things I liked about agenting, that max maximizes my my time connected with creativity, with writing, with story craft, um, and mix it all together into a life that can sustain me and have much more financial security than um agenting. And I kind of grasped my way there. I'm I'm not gonna be lying if it was some orderly process, but um, that's what I was reaching for was sort of how do I and this is something I learned at the hedge fund. That's one of the reasons I'm so thankful I work there. One of the crucial ideas that I learned is not to re reject, not to create false binaries. We sometimes we think I can be creative or I can be financially secure. Like I can as if these are like rigid things that are possible, but only two possibilities in life. Um, I guess I need to be financially secure, but I'm only gonna have like 10 minutes on the weekends, which isn't enough to be creative. Um and Bridgewater really teaches you to the to see the falseness in those false, in those binaries and the that rigid way of thinking. And instead, I think, how can I have it all? How can I have all these different things I want and how can I make them fit together? And so that thinking was just so groundbreaking for me because I started to look at my life much more systematically and um much more like a machine, which is what Bridgewater encourages you. What are the inputs? What are the outputs? What's the structure? What's the how does the machine run? Um and what I learned was that I could, yeah, I could have the financial security by running my business well and finding opportunities for with paying clients. I could have time to write, I could be flexible and travel, I can make this all this whole ecosystem work and feed on each other. So, like my work with clients supports my blog, which supports finding clients, which supports my books and supports my writing career. And in the whole thing, I'm learning about creativity and and writing craft, and it all just fit together. And that's um I I you know, and when I think back to that turn, those turning points of um what if I had never left publishing? I would never have gained this info knowledge that I gained and the way this way of seeing the world and this um that I learned at Bridgewater that let me do what I did, but in a way that I would enjoy way, way more. So is all is all of your work right now, of your paid work about writing and creating and books and authors and so in 2019 I reached another inflection point where I was like, I'm I I was enjoying where I work with authors. It wasn't yet enough to pay my bills, but it was close enough that I was like, I think I can get there. Um my Uber work was gonna be wrapping up, and I was like, it's time to make the leap. Make the the cut the final chords. It's kind of what it was. I'd already made the leap. But I kind of cut my last remaining kind of safety cables and um and have been um working solo um ever since, solely in the world of books, and that's how I make my living.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Do you do you ever think longingly of the quintuplet, the quin how did you say you quintuplet yourself?

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Yeah, and especially that health the catalog health insurance. Oh my gosh, the benefits uh they they really take care of people there. Um Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

I mean, someone I'm gonna get on LinkedIn and look up see if Bridgewater has any openings right now.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah. I mean, I I really I'm telling you, they they treat their employees well. It's uh but it's a very intense place to work. Um yeah, I I I sometimes I it is it is nice to like imagine a nice cushy nine to five, you know, where I don't have to like worry about paying for my own health insurance, where I don't have to like fix random site outages and random stuff that can completely can completely collapse my business. And um, I'm dealing with a really significant challenge right now, which is um, you know, my whole business model is based around search and people finding my blog and subscribing to my newsletter, becoming a client and look finding me as an editor. Google completely changed the their search route, their search was pr in in in March to lean into AI results. And so my entire model has completely been kind of like messed up. And and the I I also had pretty sophisticated search ads, and those, the effectiveness of those have also stopped working, and more and more authors are turning to AI to kind of for publishing advice. And so my whole model is kind of under threat, and after now, I have to figure all this out. Um and um so yeah, it's not easy to like fly the plane, fix the plane, fly the plane. Uh sometimes it's nice to think about being a passenger a little bit, but um I think the the the benefits outweigh the uh for me, the benefits of flexibility, the ability to kind of like do work I find meaningful is more important to me than a cushy salary and a cushy job.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Okay, that's one of my questions I was going to ask. Is at this point in your career, what is important, what is most important to you about work? Making enough, being your own boss, um, the work meaning something, and you would say it's the meaning, it's the work needs to be meaningful?

SPEAKER_00 52:27

For me, it flows first from the from meaning, um, definitely. Um, but I but it's it's uh if to me, to me, it's not like a ranked list, it's an ecosystem, right? Meaning is a crucial pillar of the ecosystem. Um financial security is a crucial pillar of the ecosystem. Like I'm not making bridge water money, but like I'm doing fine. I have enough to cover to do what I want to do in life. Um, and that's that's all that's important to me. I'm not, I'm not someone who's motivated by money for money's sake, right? Some people may are are more money motivated, which is great, like no more power to you. But for me, uh getting in tune with my core values, it's more about meaning, creativity, financial security. And I actually write down these values. I have a whole like like like spreadsheet that has like the things that are important to me and what I'm optimizing for. And um let me Nathan has a spreadsheet for his values. Spreadsheets on spreadsheets on spreadsheets. But um, yeah, mine are like um so my my core pillars of my life are friends and relationship, family, creativity, challenge and personal growth, health. So like working out's really important to me, security and social justice. So those are my like, how many is that? That's seven, seven pillars that no matter what I do in work or personal life, I try and optimize those seven things. Um try and be a good, you know, son, brother, uncle, um, try and be a good husband. Um, and um, so I have systems that support all of these core pillars of my identity. It's it's weird. I know to people who are like are a little not as structured as I am, it sounds kind of a nightmarish, but um it's a system that works for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

No, I love it. I um fell into this world of this values thing several years ago, and I would see people would have their list of values. Well, they would talk about areas of life, how like mind, body, spirit, um, friends and family, creativity, whatever. And then they would say you kind of examine it every month or so to figure out which one maybe you should could use the mo most attention right now. But it sounds to me like you kind of try to keep them all working.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah, exactly. And I think that that is no pillar higher than Yeah. I think it's really important to not think of your pillars as being separate from the others because the chances are they can really reinforce the other ones. And so for instance, I believe I really just r want to make the world a better place. I wanted to leave the world better than I found out. At least my efforts contribute to the making the world a better place. The primary vehicle that I do that is via a program I started with We Need Diverse Books to help authors from underrepresented backgrounds. And so, like my kind of even my sort of attempts at making the the world a better place are connected to the book's ecosystem. And so, you know, I I just try I try and like, and even working from home helps me be a better husband. You know, I'm sort of able to pick up slack when I around the house and stuff when I need to. Um so all of these things I think of as like a as an ecosystem more than if I thought of like financial security and creativity as being separate, I might have a day job and ride on the side. Uh I might go work at a homeless shelter, which is amazing. I mean, if I'm ever we we need more people doing things like that, but I try and just kind of keep weave it all together. That's just my own personal approach. And what I find is that it boosts the whole when you do that.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Do you so you consider yourself a I you probably do not like the noun creative, a creative, but that's the world you live in, right? You would call yourself a a r an artist, a creator.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

I think yeah. I mean, I think but when you look at this sort of output, uh the answer is yes. But and I think one of the things that I um one of the really great things about learning at an agency, lear learning at a literary agency is there's no such thing as a creative type, right? And there I don't think there are markers of what creative people are like. Um and I realize that there are so many different ways to write a book. There's so many different types of people who write books. Um and so yes, I think at the end of the day, I I I value creativity, I value creating, I really like writing. Um and um but I d but yeah, it but even it's so weird to think of myself as a creative person, which I think you sensed. Like it it you I think you know me well enough to know that I might might be like, yeah, am I like I don't know, like just doing what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Yeah, okay. Um let's let's get you some business. What is your what's your what's your pitch? I'm gonna pick two of the things that I know you do. What is your pitch for editing? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 57:37

I really take pride in my ability to help writers elevate their craft. So for for editing, typically I start with a full manuscript or at least as far as an author's been able to get on their own. And I offer two approaches to give feedback. One is um kind of a high-level critique, and one where I really get in there with the pros and help improve the the line edit writing craft, line by line writing writing craft. Um and so yeah, so I'm I'm usually for editing, I'm usually a good fit for people who are uh who have finished a book, a novel or memoir is really my wheelhouse and um and are ready to see what the world thinks of it, whether that's seeking an agent or self-publishing.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

Okay. Love it. But you do have different price levels, so for that, I'm pr yeah, I do. Kind of a high-level line by line.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

To be transparent, I'm pretty on I'm on the more expensive side, but I also connect people who can't afford my rates to editors who are more affordable.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

Aaron Ross Powell Oh, like good too. Okay. He also called how to write a novel.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah, exactly. So for beginning writers, then there's the book and the blog. And so like how to write a novel, um, which is basically um really more it's less about the the nuts and bolts of craft, although there's some in there, and more about just the mindset of how to the mindset of finishing a novel and um how to how to stay in the right in the right mindset and weather the ups and downs of the the creative process.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Yeah. I can, Nathan, you tell people in that book, if you don't have thousands of dollars laying around, just get friends to edit your book.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Totally. No, no, totally. I I you I I'm very transparent that you don't have to pay for editing. Like as long as you have to, but you don't have to pay for editing. But it can really help. And it can help level up your career. And so um, I put my own m money and time where my where my mouth is. All my books have been edited, were edited by someone with New York publishing experience prior to me sending them out. And um some I'm I'm in the position, fortunately, where I can do some gib get there. So I'm not always spending a huge amount of money on it, but I have paper editing too. So um, but if you can't swing that, um yeah, gets just get somebody to read it, someone you trust. It's because you have to have some feedback before you send it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Yeah. Um, you talked to me once about take it as far as you can where you're very sure of it before you make an agent or someone tell you if it's and that was really, really, really good advice. That's actually why my book is still sitting on my computer. Because it's not keep at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Just keep at it. Keep at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

I am definitely gonna keep at it. So which brings me to the next. I want you to do what's your pitch for a coaching call, which I have done with you. So I could pitch you, and I will, but I want to hear what you would say that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Yeah. Well, I mean, for my coaching calls, they really take every kind of shape and form. Some of it is sort of the creative life kind of conversation along the lines of what you and I had, of just sort of like how to organize a creative life and how to make time, mental time and space for your writing, how to embrace being a creative person or whatever you need to do to sort of like, you know, get over the humps to get the thing done, all the way to the nuts and bolts of writing craft. I can talk through particular plot points, um, or the industry, sort of navigating agents, marketing and social media. Um I I I've I've really seen a lot in being connected to industry nearly 25 years now and have having approached it from many different standpoints, you know, literary agent, published author, self-published author, freelance editor. Um and so I I wear a lot of different hats, but uh these calls, uh, if you feel stuck, just schedule a call with me and we can talk it through. And I've I if I can't get you unstuck, then I probably know someone who can.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yes, that was it was so helpful for me. I will do it again. Unfortunately for you, it was like therapy for me. And I don't have a different therapy um thing. And so next time I call you, will they be like, Nathan, it's time for another therapy session.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

Well, no, that's I mean, that's a half of the half of it almost always. And and I I think that it is like um one thing I can offer because I as an agent, I thought I knew what it was like being an author because I was connected to authors all day. It was so different going through the process as an author. And so I have a lot of of sympathy for for writers and also writers at every stage. Because like I said, I was the least talented person in my creative writing class. I no one saw promise in me except for Vikram said, Thank you, Vikram. Um, and so the I didn't I I I ever anywhere I got was for f from other people helping me and and just charging through. So I have an enormous amount of of empathy for writers at all stages of the process because chances are I was I was at that stage at some point.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

Yeah, that's gotta be what people feel from you is that empathy and and then like you have the empathy plus the knowledge, and it's just so helpful. One of the things you said to me that was my favorite on my coach call. So I'm just giving this away for free to all of you people, but um do a coaching call, Nathan, it's so helpful. But you talked to me about how there's a couple different feelings. Um, there's the vague sense that there might be something different out there or something better. And there's like nothing you can do with that, really. But then there's the kind of aha, like, ooh, maybe I could do this. And that's kind of what you had when you decided to start offering editing services.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

And at the time when you and I talked, I knew that podcast thing was in my head. It was in there somewhere. And now look at me. I'm looking. I mean, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

I'm so I was so excited when I when I saw that you were doing this. It's like it's amazing. You let you just went for it. You you you didn't let any kind of I mean, I'm sure there were like all the fears. But you did powered through.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

I was like, why would I do this? Why do I I don't know why it's so audacious? But I just did it anyway. I was so nervous and did it anyway. And that's why is because I'm like, it feels like one of those ideas that is a real idea, not a vague sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

So it's such a good idea, and I'm probably happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Oh, and the thing is that you said to me is you got you need to make room in your life to receive those ideas. So you need space. You need white space, you need time that's you called it, I think you called it creative time where you're not making anything. Yeah, you're just allowing um the ideas to come, which is so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

So I really look we're here. This is so cool. Like what you really did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

I know, I know. I I feel very excited about that, and I'm talking to you. It's so full circle-y.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Um so many things. Okay. If someone wants to be a writer, they don't have an established paying career yet, so maybe they're real young, whatever. They know it's what they want. What would you tell them to do? How do they proceed?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

I mean, I I personally am someone who thin thinks this isn't like kind of a cultural belief. I believe good creativity flows from stability much more than pre prec precariousness. And I feel like, you know, yes, be creative, yes, start writing the novel. But um if you want to make money writing and and in the publishing industry, like literally there's a million different ways that are better to make money than writing and publishing. And so it can't be something that you could depend upon for for that. I mean, if it comes along, wonderful. Um, but I think the thing I would encourage people is is to build your creative ecosystem and not just think, oh, I have to, all I have to do is um write a novel, and if I don't do that, I'm gonna like be destitute. Like, I don't think good creativity can come can flow from that kind of precariousness. And so it's it's like, how do you build your creative ecosystem? How how can you have the financial stability to be able to be creative, to have time where you're have stress free time in your life where you can have creative time? Um, And you know, what what is your base? And so I'm I'm a big believer in those ecosystems. And then I'm also bl a believer in translating that into a schedule and a rhythm. And so um different people thrive on different levels of of uh regularity and and and I I recognize that, but um but scheduling your must-dos and then creating blocks of creative time that you stick to is the best way to actually make progress on whatever it is that you're trying to do.

unknown 1:06:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

So yeah, I I I'm a believer in not just like go write the I I you know I I love Vicram Seth telling me go into the basement and and you know, write your your your novel. Um but for me, I I I've only been able to be creative in times when I was at a stable.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

But you do think I I think I heard you say though, it does make sense for a person who thinks they want that creative element. They might want to write a book or whatever. It does make sense for them to consider the time a job that pays will take from you, the time and energy because you need to.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

Yeah. And that's why I think it's really helpful to think of this, think of your life in terms of a calendar, honestly. Just to really schedule all of your time down to individual blocks and to really think about, okay, this block, this this job, you know, I'm evaluating you're evaluating it in terms of your ecosystem. And I wish I'd done this much earlier because the Bridgewater job was amazing. It filled many boxes in some ways, but I didn't write a word while I was there. I I bought a laptop thinking I was gonna like write on the bus to and from work, and like, no, I didn't, I didn't do that. I was exhausted. Um and so and so evaluating, you know, your opportunities in your ecosystem might make a high-paying job with that you don't like very much, but you know what it's for more palatable if you know how it all fits together.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

That's really good. I love that. Um is there something you wish you could fix for writers?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

That's a really good question. A lot of things that that could be fixed for writers. Um I I I wish I wish the publishing industry were a little bit more attuned to the what it's like to be a writer these days. Uh I think that the I don't think that the publishing industry, the traditional publishing industry is currently doing a good job of cultivating like a positive experience for people who may become writers. Like it's there are a lot of no response to me, no agents who aren't getting back to authors. It's very opaque, it's very, very difficult, very it's a very untransparent industry. Um and I really wish it were a better, a better ecosystem because they really leave a lot of writers in limbo in a way that is very harmful to psyches, but then harmful to careers. Like if authors just knew, for instance, it was an on-starter or that it wasn't gonna work much quicker or in a reasonable time frame, they could move on to other things. But instead, the it's cut it's it's it's very c common in the industry to be left on hold for months, years even. And um I understand how that looks from the inside because you're just constantly besieged, there are constantly more writers, another one's gonna come along, and you're financially incentivized to focus on what pays and what doesn't pay is to like spend a lot of time handholding unpublished authors. But I don't know. I just I just think that the ecosystem is is is is a bit broken in in many respects. And I wish that it was a little bit more of a uh I wish we were a stronger community.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

That's a good one. I agree. I hadn't it it hurt me, I will say, the the long time it can take to get answers that did set me back a bit. I didn't know what to do with it and I stayed um treading water in really like where I should where it really didn't make sense to still be treading. But so I I couldn't feel that deep. I'm gonna um tangent for a little sort of tangent because I actually um let's see, let's see if if uh I have this text. Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay. So I texted Felicity Felicity, my sister Felicity, and said, Tell me if you have any questions for Nathan. I'm gonna tell him you said hi and asked you questions. So she does have one that I might that I'll see if I can get to. Okay. That I did the same thing with my husband. I said, So I'm about to interview Nathan Brandsford. There's people in my life that I have to explain to him every time I talk about them. And I think I'm I think I've done it enough with you that he knows. So yeah, like the coaching call and stuff that I had with you. And so I'm like, he's he's the one who used to be a literary, literary agent. He helps writers write books. He's like, I have no questions for that. That's way outside my ecosystem. I said, exactly. So what would you ask him? And he said, What does he do that's not those things? What do you like to do? And it that was on my list anyway. Yeah. So let's tangent for a minute and talk about what else you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

Yeah. So outside of work, and um I um I really I work out a lot. I work out like five times a week. I really value just sort of um also from a creativity standpoint. I mean, it's just from a life standpoint, like you know, I value being healthy, but like I think working out and being physic physically active is super important to creativity and I'll often have my best ideas when I'm when I'm working out. Um, but I watch, so I have to be honest, I I scheduled this call at such a time when I knew there wasn't going to be a World Cup game because I watch a ton of soccer. Um and um and so yeah, I um I'm I I think soccer is my main non creative, non-riding hobby. I watch a ton of soccer. Uh what? And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

What's your workout? Like it were weights, running? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

Yeah, so Monday, I'm pretty regimented as you can probably tell. So Monday spin class.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

You have a spreadsheet?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:12

Yeah, yeah. Monday, Monday, um, Monday spin class, Tuesday Pilates, Wednesday spin class, Thursday core workouts at home, five personal trainer at the gym, lifting weights.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Oh my gosh.

unknown 1:12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:24

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

I invest a lot in it. I mean, I'm not like I'm not like fabulously wealthy to be doing that, but it's some it's so important to me that I invest a lot of my income in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:33

Okay. And the soccer, I saw a meme I sent to my younger sister to charity, but it makes me think of you too that said, you know, the World Cup situation being in the US. It's like the US has invited all our cousins for a sleepover because our parents hate each other.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:49

Yeah. It's just like the vibe. That's the vibe.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

It's just it's it is a weird vibe to be having the World Cup right now because the country's in such a weird place. And so we're kind of inviting the yeah, totally inviting the world into our mess. Um But you know, I felt different, I I wasn't sure how how to feel about it, but I was I I took a trip to Europe to watch soccer, of course, as one would uh two months ago. And uh, I'm in Scotland and hanging out with one of my Scott Scottish friends, and his his friends were were going to Boston and they were like, You gotta go to Boston, you gotta go to Boston, like come with us to Boston, it's gonna be so so amazing. And I was like, why would I want to go to Boston in in June? Like, but like sure enough, now you see all the social media video media videos where they think they they knew how crazy it was gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Um but I heard that the Scotland drank all Boston.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

Yeah, they they they drained Boston of beer. Um and uh so I I I that kind of led me to feel like, okay, there's so there's excitement out there, even though you know the world mostly hates it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

You have I'm scared to even ask, do you have us any sense of patriotism?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

I do. I do. I I I am like, I, you know, I definitely have my frustrations with the country right now. So for the United States first game, I wore a NASA shirt, which I think, which is like as much patriotism as I could summon. Like, well, I love NASA, so I'm gonna I'll just wear a NASA shirt. That's my cause that's my USA Pride um shirt. But um no, I'm I'm into it. I'm definitely rooting for the U.S. I've been I've been rooting for the uh men, United States men's national team when I was a kid. And I was um 22 and a senior in college when we went to the quarterfinals in Korea. And I was because I was in college, I could actually watch the games even though they're like at like two in the morning. Um so um I've been hoping the United States would get better ever since. And 24 years later, we're still waiting for that breakthrough.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:33

So you've been watching soccer since before it was cool to watch soccer in this case.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:37

Yeah, I mean, I before it was really easy even to watch. I would go to a bar in um the lower height in San Francisco called Mad Dog in the Fog and was one of the only places to watch English Premier League games in the early 2000s. Yeah, I I've been into it like from for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:53

Well, for the people not on video, I asked the Patriots and question while wearing my red, white, and blue.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

Yeah, you are yeah 4th of July week.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:00

I'm kind of coming up.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

It's coming up. No, I I I still, I still, I still love this country. I mean, it it's it's not my favorite at the moment, but you know, we'll we'll we'll we'll slap back into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

It's not your favorite at the moment because you love it and you have hope for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:14

Exactly. Yeah, I do have hope that this will come around.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:17

Um Okay, you once asked on your blog, why do you write to us writers? And I said, because I want to change the world, which has changed a bit, but I wonder two things from you. Do you remember that post and do you remember the general vibe you got from writers? Yeah. And then why do you write?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Yeah. No, that was that was amazing to post because I think at the time, the day that I posted that, I normally, I normally put a lot into my posts, but I didn't have anything that day. And I just decided, let me just turn it around and just ask a question. It's a pretty simple, straightforward question. And the res outpouring was like incident. I was like, oh man, I wanted to talk about it so much. Yeah, yeah. This one touched this one really touched, struck a nerve. Uh, but it was fascinating just to see all the different reasons. It was I read all the comments. I read every single one, and it was um really fascinating to see all the different responses. Um and I think another reason I found it so fascinating was everyone had all these eloquent kind of answers and like you wanting to make the world a better place, like I write because I have to, and I I it's how I know I'm alive and all these other things, or I like, you know, um, people have been through horrible things. And um and I found it fascinating because I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

You don't know why you write?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

I really don't.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

I really don't I don't anymore. It's how I process the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:44

Yeah. I that's that's a good that's a good answer. And I think that's probably as closest to to why I do it. Um I think I write in a kind of perpetual state of confusion about why I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:56

Yeah, I think you shut down that voice that asks why you would want to do a thing. You just do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

I eventually learned to shut it down, but I didn't fill it with an answer. I didn't fill it with a good answer. I didn't like craft a good narrative around why I do it. Um the most recent thing I wrote, uh, I was about to get married. I got married in April, and um I was things were so busy leading up to the wedding. And um but I saw this email that was from my alumni association and was like, it's here's a screenwriting competition. I was like, I'm gonna do that. I had that moment, you know, that moment we talked about where I was like, I'm gonna do that. And because why wouldn't you write a screenplay as you're about to get married and have a million things, other things to do? And um and so I banged out a a screenplay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

Says the groom, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:43

Um yeah.

unknown 1:17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

Well, yeah, no, she was much busier than I was at at um at that stage, I'll be honest. I a lot of my stuff was was finished. But um I um yeah, I j I still did it. And um I don't know why.

unknown 1:17:58

I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:59

Now it's just out there kind of percolating.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

We have to have a part two, and you'd see I I just want to hear that's so interesting that you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:08

You just do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:10

Because for me, it's always been like I wanted, I wanted the career, Nathan. I wanted the writing career. I couldn't get it. Yeah. But anytime I would weep and pray, weep about it, cry about it, whatever. Like, okay, I can't, I don't know what to do, what to do next, la la la la la. What would fix it is writing. It's like once I wrote, I didn't care anymore. I didn't care that I was like making money at it. It just brought me so much joy.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:38

Yeah. And I think I think that that is what I've learned. That I think that's what I learned through the process of having Penguin publish my book. Because like at the beginning, I I was broke. I wanted the money. I wanted the I wanted to be best selling, you know, I wanted that the life of a writer very much. Um but then and the books, you know, did they did fairly well and like they're fine, but like it didn't change my life, you know. The the extra money definitely helped, but it didn't really change my life in a huge way. And so I realized it wasn't about because I got the thing I wanted and it didn't, and I woke up and I was still the same person with all the same problems. And so it just stopped being the thing I was shooting for anymore. Um, there are definitely times I, of course, I wish someone would come. I have a novel that's on submission to publishers right now. My screenplay is now kind of like working through the competition. I have it with a literary manager, you know. So I'm doing a lot of waiting. And in the past, I was like living and dying by all of that. Um, but now I'm just sort of like anyone that reads it is like a bonus. And like I'm just thankful that literally anybody reads it at this point. Cause um it's it's the fun part is when you write it, and then after that it stops being fun because like because it, you know, even when it works, there's still um it's fun, but I don't know. It's it's just hard. It's harder to have it out in the world than I think than it is to just be in control of it as a writer.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

I'm worried that's one of my problems is that I just really like that free play. It's like I love the part where I get to write when I want what I want.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

Yeah, it's amazing. It's hard. It's hard, but it's also it also is kind of tr truly the the interesting and enjoyable part. And then it and then the minute you start exposing it to the world, it invites a lot of different energy into that. Yeah. And I'm still kind of working my way through how best to engage with all of that. Sort of do I share? Do I well, how do I share? How do I kind of release you know as much of my feelings around the response that will come back as possible and recognize it that it's you know about the other person more than me, and et cetera, et cetera. But like um I think that's kind of my next frontier, it's kind of g getting more comfort around sharing, which is one reason why I I I I leaped at this because I was like, you need to be doing more things like this.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:00

Excellent. Ah, I love being the vehicle for one of your aha moments, one of your ideas. Um go back to the wedding. You got married fairly recently, and my that was another the second thing my husband said was something about Hawaii. He's we've been to Hawaii a few times and he's he loves it. He said, So he's asked, he said, ask him something like about Hawaii. I don't remember what he said. Sorry, Michael, I don't remember the exact question because I immediately answered. He just got married and went to Bora Bora. I think I don't think he has any. I think he's a little ahead of us in the vacation world.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:31

No, I like Hawaii too. I got Hawaii tips if you if you want them.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:35

Okay, cool, cool, cool. Yes. Um but Bora Bora, that's I mean, it's just fun to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:40

It's just sounds so it just it just definitely sounds like somewhere that's like the end of the earth, but it's and it's actually way closer than I thought it was. I thought it was gonna be like a super far flight, but it's like an eight-hour flight from LA to Tahiti and then this short hop to Bora Bora. It's not that far.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:55

But so from Missouri though?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:56

Wow, from Missouri, you got an extra few hops. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:01

Darn.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

Yeah. But um Yeah, it's it's a highly recommend. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:06

It's highly recommended. Yeah, you said it was pretty much what did you you told me it was like, is this real life kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

Yeah. It doesn't even seem real. You like wake up and look at it and it's just like, how's this even real?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:17

Okay, so we're getting close, I promise. But uh, there's a couple more things. One of them is so I'll I'll go ahead and set you up that in a couple more questions, I want you to do the it worked for me. So be thinking like that's something you do regularly or a big aha moment that helps you find more meaning in life. That's kind of the last thing we'll do. But before that, I wondered if you have you heard of Donald Miller who wrote Blue Like Jazz and A Million Miles in a Thousand Years.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:44

I haven't read um Donald Miller, I don't believe, but I'm from I've heard of him, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:48

So his where I'm going with this is he wrote Blue Like Jazz and then it became it was gonna become a movie. And so he had to hang out with the script writers and turn his and blue like jazz is memoir. So he was turning his life into a movie and realizing my life is really boring, it's not a movie. Like so he learned all these lessons about a good story that he wanted to apply to his life, and that reminds me of your writing advice so often, like your advice for protagonists, et cetera. I take it like so deep, like it feels like life advice. And um, one of them is well, you always talk about how the protagonist has to want something. And that's a big one for me. I have done t teachings on that. I've gone to high schools and talked about the elements of a story, are is that you have a hero who wants something and there are obstacles and they change. They're different in the end than they were in the beginning. Kind of nothing about whether they got what they wanted, but they're different. And what I always tell them is you can't change the protagonist. It's you. You're the protagonist of your story, whether you like it or not. You can't change the obstacles. They're coming at you from external, and you really can't change how you change. The only thing you can really change possibly is what you want. And so, you know, I went like in a drug awareness week once. And so I was trying to say, like, try to decide who you want to be now to um help shape that thing of what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

Yeah, that's really that's really I like that way of thinking about that. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:19

Yeah. So you don't so you're okay with that that I kind of tw sometimes twist your writing advice to like.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

No, totally. Because I've I've I think about it a lot. Because I am I am in therapy, and it is interesting how much I reach for writing and editing adjacent advice when I'm kind of trying to process. Yeah, I know it is interesting because I I do I think writing advice um there is really something about our self-perception, I think, that that writing advice and especially active protagonists really kind of um um like elicits, right? Um I'm gonna grasp for what I mean here because it's it's it really it's it's tricky, but um yeah, protagonists have to want something, bump up against obstacles, and what you draw upon are your strengths and weaknesses, which form the basis of your personality, and because we all have different slightly different dials and things like that. Um so yeah, I I definitely think a lot about myself as you know a protagonist. And I think you're right that there's not a lot you can control in in terms of the obstacles you face, although I am a big problem solver, and so I do believe in removing obstacles. But um, if you can, but um yeah, I think I think it's an interesting way to think about things.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:36

Have you heard the the kind of the new trend? If if your life was a movie, what would the audience be screaming right now?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:42

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:43

I love that one. I mean, it traumatizes me because I'm like, I don't I think they'd be screaming things I I'm not brave enough to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

But it's I don't know what they'd be screaming at me. Yeah. I mean, I've had the internet screaming at me for long enough that I usually the audience would be screaming nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

You're doing it, you're doing such a great thing with your your ecosystem is in place, I think. Um one bit of advice that um that's funny that I just said that because I'm quoting you, but I'll I'll get to that. But I you said of the protagonist that they need to be active, which is a big one for writers. I think we tend to kind of have some passive characters and the things are just happening to them.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:23

But then you said, now please note that I'm saying active. I'm not saying powerful. Right the character can be as powerless to outside forces as Job, but even he at least tried to make sense of God's wrath, even just trying to figure something out or trying to make peace with circumstances beyond a character's control is being active. And I was like, oh, the Hallelujah when you said that, because it's something I question in my own life so much. Am I being active? Um, because I'm worried that I'm not in when especially when it comes to kind of my disconnect with career and work and the arts. And I don't my ecosystem is not well connected yet, um in my mind. But so am I being active? And it that made me feel good about the fact that at least I'm trying to figure it out and working towards that.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:12

Yeah, that that's a really interesting principle because uh that you have to that right protagonists have to be active because uh it's one place where storytelling feels like it diverges from real life. Because when someone's grief stricken and they're lying in bed um and they're not not doing anything, it feels like they're very inactive. So when try when writers try and recreate grief on the page, um, they often just show a character wandering around and feeling super aimless. But the thing is, I think when what you the insight you have is that you're not actually during those periods, you're not actually passive. Your thoughts are racing. You're trying to like, you're trying more, more actively trying to process things. And so um I think that when for for writers, it's a really important lesson. To really being in tune with the the writing, but then also just from life to be in tune with the ways in which you are being active.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:09

And what you're choosing to be active on and toward.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:14

There's so much to think about there. I'll never stop thinking about it. But I commented on that post. I commented on that post and you know, thanked you for that great thing and how I was sort of applying it to my world. The only thing I questioned at the time, it's very obvious that you would be saying that. For instance, about someone who's in a dystopian world where they're practically a prisoner, there's not a lot of action they can do to fix their life. So then it becomes in my life is hardly a prison. You know, it's like my career problems were hardly that. So I still had to question if I was being active enough. But I asked, I I made a comment and then you said this great thing. One bit of advice I have is to try to remove the pressure of feeling like you have to crack the code. It never feels like there's one big eureka moment where all of a sudden you have it all figured out. It's a lot of feeling like you're building the plane while you're flying it, which was kind of the first time I'd really heard that phrase. But that's so that was so helpful too, because I absolutely am always looking for my eureka moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:14

I'm honestly always looking for rescue. That's why when you talked about being recruited, but yeah, I was like, I dream of that. I dream of that. I want someone to just show up in my life and say, here's the dream, the career of your dreams. But um I would say, and you kind of answered this earlier, you still feel like you're building the plane.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:33

Yes, definitely, definitely. And like last year I had the best year I've ever had as a as a freelancer. And then again, starting in March, Google all of a sudden just changed everything. And my business is like very, very different in the last three months. And I don't know whether it's temporary or permanent. And um, so yeah, I gotta like, I gotta get back to work, kind of figuring out a new funnel. Um, so yeah, it never really stops. I never really have reached a place where I'm like, now everything is perfect and smooth sailing.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:01

Um, I will say I told Felicity that quote, and she's like, I hate that quote. There's no way I would get on a plane that's not built.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:10

Totally. No, totally. And it's the scariest thing. It's the scariest thing about stepping off the treadmill is is you know, the and the path, the the kind of tried-intrude path is that you do have to take that leap and trust that you'll you're a good mechanic.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:26

Trust that yeah, boy. Um her question actually was what um Do you know the backstory of Theo of Golden? Do you know anything about that book?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:36

It's been on the bestseller for so long. I just read it.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:39

He was an older author. I mean, uh older, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:42

He wasn't even an author.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:43

Yeah. Self-published and um with a a plucky niece, I believe, who who helped him promote it. Uh and um and yeah, it just struck a chord with people and um is now number one New York Times bestseller.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:58

Because that's yeah, it's wildly interesting to me. Because when I read it, to be to be honest, I felt a little um one of the things I feel like I learned first in writing is get kind of like um not hide the moral, but you don't it's you can't be all moral. It's store. You want to tell a story. You don't want it to be that you can and for me that book is very much like it's a nice sermon. It's a sermon really about being a great person. And um so to me, it was it's message, it is a message more than more than just a story. And so I was a little surprised that it got through the gatekeepers, to be honest. Um then I realized well, it's sold first.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:38

Yeah, exactly. Exactly, totally. No, it's really interesting. It is a really kind of can be a um I think a books like that that blow up out of nowhere can give great insight into the disconnect between the publishing industry and the reading public, I think. Exactly. Because the books that come out of left field, they they, you know, they're not typically written with the prose and the polish and the style that is expected within traditional publishing. But they they they speak to people and they touch, they touch some raw nerves, some raw zeitgeist, and typically some raw emotionality that that I think kind of can get get um smoothed out by the polish of um traditional publishing. And it really makes me question a lot of my work as an editor because I'm kind of like, what am I doing here? Because like um sometimes I think by kind of pushing people toward traditional publishing standards, which is if that if traditional publishing is someone's goal, it's my job as an editor to help them get closer. There's a risk in in smoothing out things that readers might not care about and might actually like. Um so yeah, I grapple with that a lot. Like, am I am I am I like you know, ruining the next Theo of Golden by applying this lens that I've cultivated through 25 years that's very steeped in traditional publishing? And I don't know. I don't know the right answer. I just try and ultimately help writers write the best book they can in the way that they want to write it. And just but yeah. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:05

I feel like surely your writer experience helps you not just speak from that lens of what the publishing company wants.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:12

But yeah, well, I try and be in tune with what the writer is ultimately trying to do. Uh and kind of frame frame my suggestions as ultimately their choice because um you first have to write the book you want to write. Secondarily, if your goal encompasses traditional publishing, then maybe there's some adjustments that might be in mind. But but they're only my best guess because there's no oracles and there's no rules in publishing. So it's a very like confusing process. Um but yeah, I mean there are books like that that just man, they struck a chord.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:43

So Theo of Golden was self-published, took off, sold a bunch, so then there was like publishing houses clamoring to publish it. Is there what's the standard practice a publishing house took it on? Do they change nothing at that point?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:56

Because the book was already Um I b yeah, I uh I it can vary s somewhat, um, but for the most part, they I I I they're usually kind of published as is. Sometimes there's some polishing that happens from the self-published stage to the traditional published stage. But if it's cut touching a nerve, I I'm guessing that it probably passed through without without much much change. Um and he ha he got an agent, and so the agent um negotiated the deal and all that stuff. So it didn't it's got an agent.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:26

Well, thank you, caller Felicity White, for that question. It led me more ways than I thought because it's interesting to hear that you question how much you have that lens to put on. That's fascinating. Okay. I think we're there. We're at the end. I want to hear it worked for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:44

I just flew by. I didn't I I hope it flew by for the listeners too. But um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:48

And I think I got sometimes I feel like I definitely didn't get to all the things I wanted, but I think I pretty much did. And um, yeah, so I want to hear what you would say to our audience. It worked for me, something a aha moment or something that regularly works for you to bring more meaning or center you on the meaning you've already discovered, your spreadsheet of values.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:09

Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna I'm gonna delve a little bit more into something I've already referenced, which is the calendar and and really kind of structuring your time. And so one thing that I do that I that I started doing when I started freelancing is what I call extreme calendaring. And so I put everything I do pretty much into a calendar. So every every Sunday I plan my week in in half hour increments. And so travel time, like appointments, like soccer games I want to watch. Like everything goes into my Google Calendar. Um and um and including writing blocks and um and then I have so my workouts and everything, cooking, everything goes in. Um and then every Sunday um I have m metrics that I track that are important to me. How many friends did I hang out with? How many times did I work out? Um, what was my income this week? Just anything that is important to me that's related to the values, I I track. And I look at the week and I ask myself, was this a good week? Was it how do I feel? Do I feel like exhausted now that it's Sunday? Do I feel like energized? And what I do, what happens when it happened for me when I started doing this is I started seeing the bad trade-offs I was making with my time. And so I would get lost in Twitter rabbit holes and I wouldn't emerge and they would like all of a sudden that would eat hours, but I wouldn't see them because I just would wake up and do something else. When I started tracking my time, I would see precisely how much I was losing to things that didn't bring me meaning and didn't that weren't serving me. And um through time, like I, you know, whether it's if I have a fitness school, I try and trans translate it into time and put it into the calendar. If I'm going to sort of be more active on social media to build up my social media presence, I don't just aspire to do that. I put it into the calendar and create a system around it. I have a system where I like listen to um new music every every week. So I was realizing I was getting out of tune with like what was popular and just I wasn't getting inspired by new music. So every day I listen to two out two new albums that I source through Pitchfork and their best albums of the week.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:23

Every day?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:24

Two albums.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:25

Yeah, so I so I do that. That's part of my Sunday routine. I look at Pitchforks Roundup for the best new albums of the week, put them into the calendar, and then when I'm answering emails, I fire them up, I start listening to them, and um and I've found so many new artists um this way and kind of kept kept me creatively refreshed because it's amazing to hear like the new artists who are out there like doing amazing things. It's very inspiring. So everything goes into the calendar, and I realize that particularly for people who don't like this kind of structure, it can feel a little dystopian and nightmarish. But to me, it's allowed me to adjust my dials. And so, like, oh, I need to be hanging out with friends more. I need to prioritize that. I've been too isolated. Um, if I see a bunch of zeros in a row, I haven't seen any friends for several weeks, I'm like, oh, no wonder I'm feeling like depressing and off. Um and so through time, I've tweaked my systems and my routines to arrive at a place where I have enough time to create um if I want to, um, have unstructured time if I need it. Um and none of this is set in stone. If a friend shows up at my door, I'm not like, bye, you're not in the calendar, like, you know, like uh it adjusts. But but if I had if I had planned a three-hour writing block for when that person arrives, I have to move it, right? And something else has to give. And you see precisely the trade-offs that you're making that are standing in the way of things that are more meaningful. Um so I found it very, very useful to be very mindful with my time and energy. And because the more time you spend on things that bring you meaning, the more meaning you're gonna feel in your life. And writing a novel, as you, as you know, it's a time game first and foremost. You have good writing days, you have bad writing days. You can't write when you're always inspired. You're gonna have both days. You're gonna have days that feel like you're butting your head against the the blank screen, some days that flow, but you need both days. And it's just you have to throw time at it. And so the only way to do it is by treating your time as the finite like it is. And um, to me, the calendar is the path forward.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:28

That is such a good one. Although it's making me think two things. First, do you ever put a block in that is random scrolling? Like, okay, you can just watch a bunch of reels in this 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:42

I I yeah, well, I have I do have blank time. I don't literally schedule. Yeah, yeah. There's there's blank time where I'm kind of give myself a break to do whatever I feel like doing in the code.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:50

I'm gonna ask you.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like it's not literally like now you sleep and now you're not with like lights out and then like, you know, hit hiss the pillow. No, no, not quite that extreme. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:00

So it's extreme calendaring for the things that are important to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:03

The things that are important with flexibility. It's you have to build flexibility in the system too.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:08

Yeah, I read a I shouldn't am I gonna name her name? Yes, I am. Danny Shapiro memoir about writing. And she's had this sentence in it, you know, she was talking about how w writers really don't have holidays, they don't have vacations, you know, you write or you don't get paid. And so, and she talked about, she said, if a friend stops by for lunch, I can't do it. My whole day would be gone. And I was just like, I'm done then. I don't want to be a writer if that's the life. Because how do you have meaningful outputs if you don't have those meaningful relationships? And I I think if I was to talk to her about it, we would have a good conversation because it's I'm sure it's not what she meant. Um, but it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:49

Yeah, I'm also I'm also not gonna like pretend I'm not home when when a friend shows up or something like that, right? Like just because I'm writing. Um but you moved the block. There are trade-offs though. There are trade-offs that you have to make. I mean, I really like drinking whiskey, but I have to keep that, you know. If I'm gonna be a writer and I want to be creative, I have to protect my, you know, um my creative time by by not drinking the night before because like I I'm getting older and I just can't handle it anymore. So I have to really, really curtail it. And so it's more about Stephen King, Nathan. I know. I don't know how I don't know how people like that do it. But when you're Stephen King, you get to do anything, I guess. But um yeah, I can't do it anymore. I have to like really, really limit it. Um Yeah, it's tough getting older, you know. But um, what can you do? But yeah, I think that it's sort of putting everything at least staring at it, you know, just at least staring at how you spent your time that week, um, at least staring at the screen report you get from Apple once a week. Um I think it leads to better choices.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:57

Yeah. The the other thing your extreme calendaring reminds me of is I talked to uh to my mom and sisters once about how I have all these manifestos. It's like I have a manifesto for who I want to be and so how I want to behave on social media, a manifesto for writing, a manifesto for and my felicity was like, I don't know anyone who spends as much time thinking about how to enjoy your life and having a life as you do. I think you have me beat, Nathan. Extreme calendar.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:25

I yeah, I think I'm even more like more regimented. Um, but you know, it it works for me. It works for me. And like the thing is, is it's not like it's not all powerful. If one day I wake up and I'm like, I'm not doing anything that's on my calendar, I don't do anything that's on my calendar. I mean I'm it's not I'm not like a robot, but um I just it's just a tool for staring at your trade-offs, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:47

Yeah. And I like how it's both. You plan it and you examine it at the end of the week.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:52

That's the well, that's the key. That's the key, really. Because the point is the examination. It's not to be regimented. That's not the point. The point is to like stare at the choices that you're making.

unknown 1:43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:03

Against the pillars of your life. Yeah. Oh, I love it. That's so good. Thank you. Um can't thank you enough. I have loved this conversation. I'm so grateful too. And um, I'm really excited about this episode. I really appreciate it. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:20

Thank you for having me. I mean, I kind of want to turn around and and do the same interview, only you're the one who's talking. So I want to hear more about your your choices too. So we'll have to set some time up for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:29

I'll set up a coaching call. That's lovely. Another one. But thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:35

Good chatting with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:36

And enjoy that soccer.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:37

I will. It's been awesome so far. So go USA. See ya. All right, see you later.