Try the Side Gig; It Might Be the Calling with Lt. Joe Nickerson

Meet my brother, Lt. Joe Nickerson. He started in law enforcement as a side gig and discovered it was the perfect fit for his specific strengths and calling. Joe describes his first experiences in the police academy as "life-changing." Learning a new job within law enforcement became Joe's next aha moment. Now he had found not just a calling but a role comprising everything he cared about most. I loved this conversation with one of my favorite humans. His connection to his calling is inspiring. Listen for that and stay for the great advice about finding your own strengths and leveraging them.

Chapters
02:27 Early understanding of how work relates to identity
07:22 Joe’s 7-year-old self may have known
08:31 Planning a bivocational life (ministry + side gig)
11:48 Starting college
12:37 Law enforcement: the side gig
17:37 Law enforcement in rural America
20:41 Law enforcement: the calling (and how to get there)
33:06 Strengths finding: a new role in the department is a surprisingly perfect fit
35:45 Starting over in Omaha
40:44 Specializing again (negotiator training)
46:54 Naming AND aiming our strengths for success
53:56 Trusting the calling even when others doubt
1:00:11 Long-term goals, leaving a legacy, and never leaving the calling
1:06:13 Misconceptions about law enforcement
01:23:24 Feeling cohesion (what is cohesion?)
01:28:19 Come work for the Omaha PD! (the many possibilities of a job in law enforcement)
01:32:45 It worked for me

Links
Gallup strengths: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/252137/home.aspx
JoinOPD.com https://www.joinopd.com/ 
Omaha 360: https://empoweromaha.com/violence-prevention-omaha-360/

Other references
Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement by Kevin M Gilmartin

I Do This For a Living is independently produced. 

@serenitylive

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Joseph Nickerson or Joe. Yeah, so tell me which one to use in this podcast. Do you usually introduce yourself as Joseph or Joe? Okay. Well, you're going to get a chance to do that because this is my idea for you for introduction. Have you seen that social media post where people say, um, I have a lot of new followers, so let me reintroduce myself. Have you ever seen that? Okay. So you have a pretty active social media uh presence, so I figure you know that language. So how would you introduce yourself if you, you know, suddenly had a new influx of followers? Probably because of this podcast, I'm just gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Um yeah, I didn't know. So hi, I'm Joe. Uh I am a husband and a father. Uh I enjoy the outdoors, hunting, occasionally some fishing. Um, I enjoy playing the bass. Um, and then it inevitably ends with, and I'm a cop.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I'm a cop. You use the word cop?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

So cool. Okay. I'm so excited about this. I'm so excited about this. Um so, first of all, you know, I've talked to Charity and Phyllis, and I didn't ask Felicity the early understanding of work that she had, but I did ask Charity. She and I had Charity and I have very similar experiences. And then I did get some intel from Phyllis too. But I want to hear your early understanding of what work is.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Uh I think work.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Well, our dad, he's retired now, but he was a family practice physician with some stints also as the ER doctor. Um, so it was like a log a lot of your identity, like my dad's a doctor, that always came up. And we lived in a small town where he was the doctor. So it was, oh, you're Doc Nickerson's kid. Um, so a big part of your identity and just what you do. Like he was gone every day at work. Um he, if you ever watch Little House on the Prairie, he's like Doc Baker. He would do house calls and people would show up at our house at two in the morning um asking for stitches. And we also sometimes got paid in like zucchinis and chickens. So very, very different than what you think of as a, you know, people think, oh, you're you run a doctor household, you guys are probably loaded and all this stuff. Uh we always lived in a small town. Um, and just I don't know, that's what it was. So I I knew like to me, work was a big part of like your identity or just who you were. Like you do something like I'm a doctor, I'm a cop, I'm a garbage man. Um, that's just kind of who that was my thought process. So growing up, it's like, what am I going to be? was kind of how I thought of work.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Did you oh, so many questions. Actually, I know we joked about the country doctor thing, but I actually did feel I got my concept of what a doctor is from the game of life where you really wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer because they were the rich ones. So even though our experience was we joked that dad was the country doctor who got paid in chickens, I really did kind of believe we're rich. We're certainly fine because dad's a doctor.

unknown 4:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

You had that?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

No, I yeah. I don't think I honestly, when it came to like money or income, I don't know if I had a concept of that. Yeah. Um we didn't do allowance or like, you know, work for myself is like you helped around the house and mom and dad bought your clothes and your shoes and snacks and and that's just what it was. So I never felt like we were wanting necessarily. Um I wouldn't because I was always surprised, like I'd tell people my dad's a doctor, and then like, oh, you know, what kind of car do you drive? I don't know. 83 Ford F-150 pickup like what a big blue and tan van.

unknown 4:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I don't think it was until later in life I realized, oh, people just expect doctor families to be loaded because it's typically a very high-paying profession. Um, so it was not all early on the the work was the identity of who you are, what you do with your time, wasn't necessarily tied to how much money you make or how you take care of your family or like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Absolutely, same, same. The all the the big difference, like Charity and I, she's the youngest in the fam, and I'm the middle daughter. We both had a real artistic view, kind of that we saw the arts and church and stuff like that too. And so we were kind of like, I'm gonna get to do whatever's fun and whatever. But I I've been examining it lately, and I definitely got the message from mom and dad. Like I always thought about work, which is surprising to people who know my complicated relationship with work. But I really did always think, what am I gonna do? I knew there was a doing part to life. I'm gonna do something, but I absolutely thought I'll be a doctor if I'm called to be a doctor like dad. I'll be a writer if that's my gift like mom. I mom also had jobs where she assisted him, like she was just office manager, who did that because she was supporting him, not because she needed a part-time job. And same with some sort of jobs that she had. It was always tied to meaning and sort of calling and stuff like that. And so I think I I think that explains some of why um it's been hard for me to see work as an exchange transaction that you do it for money, but then you really need money. So that's just the case sometimes. Um Felicity was a little more to me if we did, if we didn't really get the money thing either, but if we had um if we had ideas about jobs that to of things to be that were more would make money, like lawyer. Apparently, if she wanted to be a lawyer at some point. I'll have to talk about to have her on again at time now. Um, so I love that you had what'd you say?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

She's pretty bossy growing up, so she'd probably be a good lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yes, she wasn't bossy, her ideas were just better. And her and dad butt would butt heads more than more than any of us because maybe they were both a little bossy. I don't know. Um I love that you got that same message from mom and dad. And what I discovered today is they back it up. They agreed that that is the message they uh they presented. Um so then so then I can't wait to hear if you still tied job to identity or if you were able to see it differently. So what what was the first glimmer for you as a kid? What kinds of things did you think you were gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Um I don't I didn't remember this, but when I went into full-time law enforcement, my first full-time law enforcement job, a dear friend of ours who's now passed away, David Gray, he provided me with a picture from when I was seven years old and that said, I want to be a policeman. He'd kept that from a Sunday school class when I was seven years old. So this was 22 years later. I don't know why he kept that, but when I got the full-time job, he dug it out and said, Oh, look, you've been wanting to do this since you're kidding. I don't remember that. Honestly, my earliest memory of thinking about I need an occupation, I need a job, was I was gonna be a garbage man because in our small town they were still riding on the back of the truck and picking up the cans by hand, and I was like, oh, they get to be outside all day to ride around a truck, that looks kind of fun. Like, uh, I love the outdoors, so that the idea of being outside sounded good. Um, but probably m after that, after realizing maybe garbage man, I didn't have the biggest concept of money, but I probably realized maybe not easiest to take care of family with that income. Um, ministry in our circle where we grew up, ministry was like, I I don't know if it was said out loud, but this felt like a pressure from the community we were involved in that the highest level of calling is to be in full-time ministry. And so, and I also felt a lot of pressure from other people. Oh, I would get called. Oh, Pastor Joe, you're gonna be a pastor someday, be a pastor. So ministry was early on as a young person. I was desperate to go to a private, switch from public school to our private Christian school because I knew ministry what I was supposed to do. But I also always thought I'd have what we'd call bivocational calling. I felt like ministry would be my identity of focus, but I'd probably have a side job. Um, because I did as I was growing in up, I was realizing, you know, some of these ministers that work full-time are not making a lot of money, clearly, especially in our smaller circle. Um, we weren't in part of a mega church where they're bringing a lot of cash. Um, so pretty early on I struggled with as a teenager, not struggled with, but thought a lot as a teenager. I feel like ministries are supposed to do, but I'm probably gonna have to do some work on the side and what that looked like. And so some of my first jobs were kind of geared that way. Um like my very first paying job. Well, I would do like handyman stuff and stuff as a teenager, help out. I'd work on my uncle's hog farm, make a little cash here and there. Um, but my first job was in a bookstore at a college, and it was just to help pay some bills while I was in Bible college. Then I went to work at the at the Bible college cooking meals and doing different things. Uh quickly decided food service was not something I wanted to make a career out of. Um, did not enjoy that. Um we you remember growing up, we always lived at older houses that we'd even remodel while we lived in them. It's a great learning experience. Um and so construction was kind of natural to me. So then I kind of transitioned from doing uh food service to working in a construction company that was part of the ministry we were involved in. And we would help um troubled young men who needed to get it put up in life. They'd work in the construction crew, we'd mentor them and help them out, and then we did we build houses. And so that was kind of my first experience of like, okay, I I'm building houses and construction, making money, but I'm also still doing ministry, which I feel. Um then that transitioned into for a short period of time doing full-time ministry, where I was on the road recruiting for the Bible College and a band that played bass guitar in a band. Um, and we would do youth camps and things. And the point was to try to recruit people to come to Bible College. And then that transitioned into moving to a place to live for several years, Heartland, which is uh Heartland Children Youth Home, so where I was employed. Um, and that was at first I was doing construction with them and just part of the ministry, playing bass and doing you know, volunteer work. But then I transitioned to a full-time ministry role in a sense, and then I worked at a it was a boarding school for troubled youth. Uh we have I live here in Omaha, Nebraska. We have Boystown here, which is famous. It's kind of like a miniature version of Boystown. So I worked with troubled worked with troubled youth, um, it in the young man, 13 to 18-year-old boys. Uh that are brought there by parents, or some replaced by estate placement, most replaced by parents, and they just it was a boarding school. It was, you know, a lot of structure and a lot of church and private school and try to help these kids do well. Um, and that process, so that was like my first to what I we can think of a career. I'm working in this youth hall. It's a um and I got to a supervisor position there and and felt uh kind of pull there being a supervisor. I was like, I think leadership, pastoral leadership stuff was kind of always in my head. But I always felt like, yeah, I just don't feel like I'm hitting my potential or there's more here. Um, so I explored, well, maybe I want to be a counselor and actually get a degree and be able to actually be a professional, not just a layperson helping these kids out. So I started at that point. I started to go to school, uh, went to Liberty University, uh, Christian College online. And the first couple of years I was just gonna be prerequisites, just getting the basic gen ed stuff out of the way. So after doing a sem a couple of semesters of that, um honestly out of the blue, I don't remember the seven-year-old little boy that said I want to be a policeman, our dad. He came to me and said that um he had several doctor friends that were, they called them SWAT docs. They were hobby cops. So these doctors were fairly wealthy. They had very successful practices and had a lot of money. They wanted to help their local communities out. We live in a very rural area of Missouri where there's a lot of um volunteer law enforcement, literally that people just help out because it's a small town and they can't afford to pay for a lot of cops. So these doctors would buy all their own police equipment, they put themselves through a police academy to get certified, and then they'd help out their local sheriff's offices or police departments. So, dad, our dad wanted to do that and himself, and he came to me and said, I think you should go do this with me. I'm gonna go to a night school to become a police certified police officer. I think you should, I think this is your next day. That's what he said. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. It's not really counselor. I mean, I like guns and I like, you know, I've been working with youth in kind of almost a corrections type setting, very structured. We we were taught restraints to hold them when they're out of control and did a lot, got a lot of practice de-escalating through verbal process with kids, talking them down in their elevated. So I was like, oh, I can I could see doing law enforcement. But I still wasn't like super excited about it. It was still like a side thing of I'm here to do this ministry to help these troubled youth. I could be a cop on the side to help the community out. And then if you know we had problems, I'd have cop powers and arrest powers if I needed them. So, but I was gonna need to take some time off from a regular schedule, and it was gonna cost a lot of money to do this. And I was like, Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, the CEO and pastor of the organization we worked for, um, dad made the pitch to him. He said, Hey, would you be willing to let Joe adjust his schedule a little bit to go to this police academy with me? Because it was like, I can't remember, I think it was a two-hour drive from our house. And it was um, yeah, it was nights and weekends for nine months. So it's Tuesday and Thursday nights from like five to ten, and then all day Saturday, once a month, all day Sunday for nine months. It's a pretty big commitment.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

And it cost you money.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, it costs money. There's surprisingly, Missouri is like several states where a lot of officers in rural areas they will raise money or get a loan and put themselves through police academy. And once they're certified, then they'll try to find a job. Um, it's a hard way to do it. I've fortunately here where I work now, I work for a larger department, Omaha, Nebraska. You can come in just the door, they hire you and they put you in the academy. But some some rural areas in the country, they can't afford to do that. So some of those cops are literally paying their own way through police academy.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

So before they know if they're gonna actually have a job in law enforcement? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah, in fact, in my graduating, in my dad and I's graduating class at the academy, and there's 17 of us, I think. I think only maybe five or six of us had jobs. The rest were just gonna try to find jobs afterwards. So he pitched it to the CEO. Uh, Pastor Charlie was his name, great man. He's he's just passed on. And he thought it was a great idea. He said, I'll give Joe a time off, I'll buy all your equipment, and I'll scholarship you to go to the academy. So I was like, well, if I'm gonna go for free and get all equipment, I'll try this out. So then going to this police academy is the Missouri Sheriff's Association Training Academy. We attended a campus in Mexico, Missouri at the Audrey County Sheriff's Office. Uh shout out Sheriff Matt Aller, good man. Um, I it was life-changing. It was it was fun. Um and I I still thought of it like, well, this is really cool. What a fun side gig this will be. Like, really enjoyed law enforcement, uh, not to brag, but I was a it was a class of 17. But I was a valedictorian, I was top shot in what they called honor graduates. Basically, I I won all the awards, and so I was like the honor graduate. And I was like, man, I'd kind of take a liking at this. I think I could do this. Um transition back to we graduate, my dad and I went to the police academy together, we graduate together. It was a lot of fun. Um, very, very special time. Then we go back to I go back to just working full time in this youth home, but then I volunteer a few shifts a a month for the sheriff's office. I would go ride with another deputy and we would just do police work. Um now volunteer. I do not get paid. They had some paid gigs. Uh you could get paid for doing prisoner transports, and you could get paid for doing a court bailiff. Um, but for the majority, like if I was gonna just go ride with another deputy for an eight-hour shift, that was all my my free time just volunteering. There's a lot of that going on in rural areas of America. People don't understand, but like these guys are out there was risking their lives for free. So um I like to tell a story about that. Law enforcement was very exciting to me. I thought it was something gonna be definitely part of my life, but I was kind of thinking on the side. My first night, um, the Shelby County Sheriff's Office in Shelby County, Missouri. I went to ride with the deputy, um, and I show up and I introduce myself and we're getting ready to leave, and the deputy tells the dispatchers, because the dispatch is in the basement of the courthouse. He says, Hey, we're gonna go to the county fair. If you need anything, um, call the sheriff. I think he's probably gonna be there. And then he's like, wait a minute, Joe, do you have a cell phone? I'm like, yeah, I have a cell phone. He's like, okay, if you need something, call Joe's cell phone. Dispatch's like, yeah, we have his number, we'll call him if we need something. So we'll go get in the car, and I'm like, why is dispatch gonna call my cell phone if they need something? He's like, Oh, um, our radio antenna got hit by lightning a month ago, and we don't have police radios, and Heist don't carry a cell phone. And so then I thought I was gonna die. I was like, This is how seriously, you've been working as a cop for a month without a cell phone or police radio? And he's like, Yeah. I'm like, what do you do? He's like, not much, but you're here tonight, we'll have some fun.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Um my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

And so then shout out to Rural America law enforcement. So great guy, great department. Um, my good buddy uh Aaron Frederickson's now the sheriff in uh Shelby County, Missouri, done a great job there. But uh what I learned quickly is rural law enforcement is super dangerous and you're alone. Like in in our county, there'd be one deputy on. Um at 10 o'clock at night, there's one deputy for the whole county. And if you need something, you gotta wait for him to drive across the county. And if you get in a fight or something, you're on your own. I asked him the first night, I said, What do we do when we need backup? He said, Well, if we need backup, they'll call the sheriff and wake up the sheriff and see if he can come out. He's like, or if we're anywhere close to a state trooper's house, they might call a state trooper and wake them up and see if they come out. So literally, like, if you get in a fight as a rural officer in some parts of America, they have to call and wake your backup up from a house.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Um, and more power to him, God bless him. But I'm now a married young married man starting family. The concept of my job is in exchange for finances was starting to become clear to me.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

And um, I did not think I could support my family on that. Yeah, couldn't support my family.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

I don't think you could support your family on a volunteer job either.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

No. And and I was like, this is crazy. For one, I didn't feel like the volume of calls we were getting was enough for me to be learning. I didn't feel like I was learning uh enough. And um, and I was like, this is really, really dangerous. Uh and for the knowing even what the deputies were getting paid, not very much, and for the risk of their life, like this is wild. So I almost it almost turned me off the law enforcement. But due to some uh personal life changes, uh, my wife at the time and I decided to completely relocate and do a fresh start. And so we had friends and some family out we out in Wyoming, Casper, Wyoming.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Way.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

And so we out. Um, and so we we felt like it was a thing to do to move to Casper, and I was like, you know what? I really like law enforcement. I think I'd like to do this full time due to the drama and stress in our family situation. I was kind of not turned off to ministry, but I was like, I think I just want to work a job and just be a normal guy and just make try to get through things, get through life, just survive, just make some money, support my family. And so I uh applied to Casper Island Police Department, got hired, we moved out there, and uh became a full-time cop. And that was I'm just I'm just rambling on. If you have different questions you want to interject.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Okay, yeah, let's let me back up some things because now there's gonna be a kind of another pivot, and I want to make sure I'm in the right. Well, first of all, um in my town, they still ride on the back of the truck, those garbagemen for wheels. What do they do in your town? They just have the arms on the truck and it picks up the automatic yeah, automatic arms. Interesting. And did you hear Josh in this episode?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

He also thought of being a garbage man when he was a kid. I think that's so interesting, you guys. And it reminds me that it makes me sad that um I mean it's a real service and it like you said, it doesn't pay very well. And it's it's a it's a shame. It's a it's a shame that the most of the the most essential jobs, you know, people don't think they could make a family on it. You talked about as a kid helping around we didn't have allowance. Mom and dad didn't really believe in that exchange transaction thing as kids, but we helped out around the house and they bought us clothes, whatever. You helped out around the house is an understatement because as you said, you pretty much remodeled at least their like master suite at some point. You became like a total uh construction person. Um and then I just want to tell this funny story that on the way home from yours and dad's graduation from police academy, I got a speedy ticket. Actually I didn't get the ticket because of what I was coming home from. I think in your honor he just gave me a warning.

unknown 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

No, he just believed me. Yeah. It was it was very nice. Yeah. I um I have some history with with speeding a little bit but we can talk about that later. And then okay so you have moved towns. Okay, where are you in your degree at this point? Had you gotten your bachelor's from Liberty?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

No, I had not I took a um I took a break to go to police academy so I didn't think I could do both at the same time. Because I again I was still working mostly full time hours and then going this night weekend school so I had no no um and so no. So then once I got back to well it was right before we moved I think right before we moved I I um started again because I realized you know I think law enforcement is what I want to do so now I'm instead of getting a counseling degree I'm gonna get a criminal justice degree. I'm sure it'll help me down the road. Um and so I switched my majors. I at that point I didn't only had the general education classes anyway so I declared a major at criminal justice and started taking those classes in conjunction with the same time I showed up out there.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

So you and my husband have the same degree I did not realize.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

So it was obviously it fit with the job. It honestly was not a difficult degree to get because a a lot of the classes I was going through I was practically doing every day on the job. And so the theory of the class was I was applying it daily so it wasn't some of it wasn't difficult. Um which will part of that will tie into me getting involved with teaching which I know you want to ask about later. So um then I got to my bachelor's in that department, Casper Wyoming you didn't like you could be chief with a bachelor's there's not requirements. In fact the chief I worked the last the one chief I worked for didn't have a degree at all. But I felt I don't know I felt like a poll I didn't mind school. I hated school growing up I did not like school work. One of the reasons I didn't want to be a people would always ask me your kid well oh are you going to be a doctor like your dad I was like no he went to school for like 12 years.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

That's not terrible I can't believe you're so self-aware of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah I bit I knew I didn't like school. So going back to school for college was hard but um I when it when I can apply it to what I was doing I was like oh this is gonna help me make more money um by promoting. This is gonna help me be better at my job then it made sense and I it was fine. So then once finishing my bachelor's I was like I'm gonna keep going and I went there and then I got a master's.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So I went ahead and criminal justice also?

SPEAKER_01 25:28

It is it's criminal justice public administration.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

So it's like it was about sixty percent upper level criminal justice classes and about forty percent public administration classes. So public policy um government administration that type of thing and a very applicable degree for what I was looking to do which is stay in public service in government so that's how that went.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Okay. Um first of all this is becoming a theme on this podcast that people don't like school then they find work they like and they want to get better at it or they want to be better equipped for it and they go back to school and then they like the school. So that's interesting and it's really making me think about the education system and how we just kind of keep put people on this academia track and they have no idea what they want out of it. But um what was my next question? It was about Oh let's um okay so you kind of explained a kid a kid pops out of high school and they know they want to be a cop should they what it should their next step be?

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I encourage people to get a college degree. Okay. The reason the reason being you can't join the police department until you're 21. Um because you need to be able to carry a handgun and a lot of departments you actually purchase the handgun, you own it personally. So you have to be twenty one so the police departments just don't even hire till twenty one. Um our department like a lot of others you can start at twenty as long as you're twenty one by the time you graduate the academy 'cause our academy is twenty-three weeks. Um but so from high school to police academy you got a three year window anyway. So I tell people go ahead and just go to college and get your degree. It's gonna help you understand the job. It's gonna help you for specialty positions, promotions, which that's another thing I didn't realize till getting into law enforcement to your point of like not finding a lot of satisfaction satisfaction in work and what do I want to do you if you have that feeling in a larger department like mine, you can find a different specialty within the job that's 100% different than what you're doing before. You can have multiple careers within one career as a in law enforcement in a big department. It's very fascinating. Uh so I encourage people yeah just get the college degree have that out of the way um it looks good for applications it shows that you have work ethic and can complete tasks and then you have three years with before you get started anyway so just get the degree out of the way and then apply.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

What about in these rural areas where you're saying they have to pay to go to police academy can you not get into police academy around here until you're 20 or 21? Yep okay so that age is across the board and then okay you described it different for your like in Omaha if I want to go into police academy I apply like I would for a job and I could get turned down yes um so Omaha like a lot of big departments uh and even the other areas departments here in the metro area of Omaha that don't have their own academies they'll still sponsor you and pay for you to go to the state academy but yeah you you apply you do an interview process you take a written take a written you use a physical test of some sort usually there's a written test and then you do an interview process and then they do a very thorough background investigation. And if you make it through all that then yeah they offer you the job they'll hire you day one they put you in a train okay okay okay so I love how you talked about the kind of shift that you thought kind of I would be really full-time ministry that would be my identity but I'd have this side gig and that really shifted when you moved to Wyoming. So how do you feel about your role in law enforcement right now?

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Is it just it's it's an industry you like it's a career you like it's a calling it's an identity what is it yes all the above is that what you're saying I I definitely do believe law enforcement is a calling in that it is a very difficult job in a very difficult field. Um very very high stress high risk um dangerous dealing with difficult situations. So you have to have a strong drive and desire to do it and I don't think just financial gain is enough motivation mostly because most police departments don't pay very well.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

We're very fortunate here um we have a we have a strong union um Omaha Police Officer Association and so we have collective bargaining rights. We currently have a contract that guarantees that we are paid five percent higher than the next highest department anywhere in the state so when another department gets a raise we automatically get a raise right after uh I don't know how long that will last but the uh recruiting and law enforcement is really tough right now nationwide and so we're feeling that as well so it's something they're trying to do to help get people so no to do the job you have to have a lot of grit and stick to it in this so I I do feel like it's a calling in that sense. For me about who's Joe Nickerson the cop I say I'm a cop because I feel like cop is a calling but probably more than that I feel like um I think I'm a leader. And so I find fulfillment in law enforcement in that role and in the niche niches I've gone into and promote I've promoted several times. I now train on leadership. I'm currently developing a leadership class for our department internally uh with the with the union um and that's really my get some my gears going um and that was a different transitioning into full-time job as a cop was a big it was a big change for me but it was a bigger change from like my friends and even family and I not negative necessarily but people are just shocked. They're like wait you're not gonna be a pastor like we grew up you're gonna be pastor you're Pastor Joe like I was like no I'm a cop and um my good friend and pastor Justin Limmer we had a very intense conversation one day and he said um we'd have to get we're not gonna get into the backstory of my ministry work but right out of Bible college I did some pretty intensive ministry. I was a ministry assistant unpaid just intern but I traveled with a pastor and was involved in a lot of high profile church leadership transitions and meetings and he's like you have all this pastoral training and like he's like you're not just like a church leader you're like special forces like you have all how could you just leave all that to be a cop I said well maybe all that development and training wasn't wasn't to be a church pastor. Maybe it was just leadership training. Maybe I'm just supposed to be a leader and I can be a leader at the police department I could be a leader of church I could be leader in a Fortune 500 company but I'm just maybe leadership is what I'm supposed to do. And right now I feel really connected to my community and to my calling in law enforcement and in Casper is when that really hit home working full time as a police officer and the biggest transition for me was that specialty thing within law enforcement. So small departments you don't get a lot of specialty. So Shelby County Missouri loved working there but those deputies they're the forensic technicians they're the detectives they're the special investigators they do you get a case it's your case you do everything because they just don't have the staff that's how it is here in Omaha we're a large department we're over 900 officers sworn another couple hundred civilian staff so we're over 1100 1200 employees so we have a lot of specialization Casper PD was smaller about 100 officers but still medium medium to large department so there were specialties so you had detectives you had school resource officers specialty positions. One of those specialty positions was um crime convention slash public information officer they rolled those two jobs into one. So I got asked to do that job um due to my people skills and I like to talk to people and so they said hey do you want to do this job? I at the time was on the street I really enjoyed street work just taking radio calls showing up you never know what you're gonna get it's always crazy and exciting and you got a problem solved and I a lot of adrelling rush and I enjoyed that. So doing the crime prevention slash public information officer working with the press and the media and talking to senior citizen groups did not seem appealing to me. But I'm also a bit of a yes man. And so when the boss said Where does that come from I don't I don't know so the boss is like hey would you do this I'm like sure I'll give it a shot well absolutely loved it. A lot of public speaking um working with the media doing press interviews um a lot of community gatherings where I I picked up a piece that I have been missing about there's a pretty big gap between public understanding and law enforcement. And so in the extremes the public doesn't understand why law enforcement's doing and so they're very critical and they don't want to talk to them and they just want to ban them. That can be just as bad for law enforcement. Well the citizens don't understand us they don't know what we're doing they're just they just don't get it. Well how about we actually talk and we share each other's concerns and figure this out so in that role I got a real opportunity to be a liaison between the police department and the community I go to community meetings and I would do a law enforcement safety presentation and they'd be like oh that's why you do that oh I under that did I never knew that likewise they'd say hey here's some of our concerns so then I could take that back to my bosses and said hey I met with this community group they have these concerns these are things they're seeing and the and then the police department be like oh that's interesting okay we can work with that and that connection piece was just super fun for me loved that um and so that really that's where I felt like yeah I think this is what I'm supposed to do. Like I feel like I am more salt and light in the community in this role than I would be pastoring a church of 50 people down the road. I feel like my sphere of influence was actually bigger in the community. I had I had a lot more contacts and connections when I moved from and what really sealed that for me transitioning moving forward after a few years in Wyoming um things did not work out uh in personal life and so I had a major life transition in up here in Omaha to be closer to family. And I had the struggle of okay um do I just start fresh completely and do something different do I go into I have a master's degree do I go into education? Do I do some other job? And I was like I I love I love the cop thing. And here's another thing people don't know when you transfer from departments in the military if you transfer you keep your rank you keep your job you just go to a different base or whatever different assignment police departments are all completely unique. So when you go from one to another you start from scratch. Oh gosh so in the academy yes oh so we we have now a lateral program that's a shorter academy for officers with experience but when I came to Omaha I came in just like a brand new 21 year old with no experience and do the full 23 week academy uh had to get pepper sprayed again had to you know we have a boom style camp where they yell at you and you're doing the push-ups and sit ups and running and um how old are you I was 36 I wasn't the oldest in the class but I didn't I didn't have to get tased again but pepper sprayed which is worse in my opinion. So but I knew one I um as a now mature adult going through some um family personal life transitions which includes divorce and child support and things where money is very important now I need to be kind making good conscious decisions but also when I plan for my future Omaha had a good pension system so I was already thinking about okay how do I stay stable after the job um because am I going to be able to personally invest Omaha PD like a lot of departments has a defined pension system where my retirement is based on my percentage of salaries on my years of service has nothing to do with investments or it's not a 401k or if the market's down I lose money. It's set by my salary when I retire. So so that's a huge huge benefit to agencies that have it. There's very few businesses and and um jobs that have defined pensions like that. So that was a that was a selling point because let's be practical you need the money to survive and you need money to for longevity. And so I decided law enforcement is it I was willing to go through the starting from scratch and build my way back up because I had tasted and experienced the fruits of how I felt so connected with the community and law enforcement doing that role I I felt like I could get there again. And so that's that's what I did.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Man I don't usually ask about money on this this show. It's more about living and work but how did you support yourself through Academy um I ran up some credit card debt. Yeah um and just like the rural days again pay for it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yep ran up some credit card debt um lived very fruitally um I got some help from some some family support to help through um one for one year you had charity on earlier I lived with charity and Ryan for a year. Oh that's right with very they gave me very affordable rent which is very kind and it also allowed me to uh since I I was working night shifts and so I couldn't get joint custody of my kids because of nights but living with aunt and uncle they could stay all night with aunt and uncle while I was at work. So then I was able to then I was able to get joint custody of my kids which is a significant financial decrease as well as just more time with my kids. So that was huge shout out to Ryan Charity for that that was life changing. Yeah so that's it was tough. So I am I am still today working hard uh to get financially stable from um personal life issues so yeah uh um so that first role with the public was that was in Casper?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

That was in Casper I didn't remember that okay I was gonna so you've had some pretty varied jobs like you said being in law enforcement and it has there's lots of different ways to do it. You've done regular shift work at night um you did the public thing I I thought you did that in Omaha too did you not?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

I did yeah so okay and I kind of thought I would do that kind of for a while in Omaha. I'll be honest I was very fortunate timing wise on promotions here at my current job in Omaha. I I envisioned myself getting working hard to get into PIO public information officer because I knew I could succeed at that. I knew I enjoyed it um if you want to touch on Gallup strengths I have communication in my top five and I enjoy that so I knew it would be very fulfilling for me and I knew it was a strength of mine. So that's kind of what I envisioned uh I was fortunate in that I have promoted fast both times both to sergeant and lieutenant here at Omaha but I still have bounced around in various jobs it's just um I always tell people if they start to get burnt out somewhere I'm like look at going into a specialty unit or different unit because it's a different world it's like going into a different job. You're still a cop you're still getting the same pay and the same pension sometimes a little more pay because specialties have bonuses and things um or specialty bonuses but it's a different job and a fresh perspective it's it's a really good way to make be able to make it through a career one place and have a pension.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

So um so Felicity talked about on her episode the skills you learned in any job can transfer and might actually get you the jobs you like more. A long time ago in this conversation you talked about how you learned to de-escalate with kids and you have done training special training you're gonna have to help me with words and all that but you're a negotiator right is that the word is that part of always like it's it's an extracurricular within your work or it's a role you played I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

It's it's an extra extra duty um so um I did that in Wyoming I got that in Wyoming and enjoyed it was an extra duty there as well so basically um you have SWAT teams special weapons and tactics here we call it ERU emergency response unit but they're the cool operators right the cool dudes um some of them God bless them are not the best communicators they have really good tactics but and they just don't want to be communicators they want to do the tactics and the high profile stuff but a lot of times in these situations you end up with what's called barricades where there's somebody in a house it's probably not safe to just rush in and get them so we try to take some time and talk them out safely and that's where negotiators come in. And so I I got certified as a negotiator in Wyoming and really enjoyed that. Again the communication piece I enjoy talking to people I enjoy listening to people building rapport and then when it goes well hey man let's just come out and just do this peacefully and that that works. It doesn't always work but it feels great when it does so I knew I want to do that as well as PIO and I got into both of those here. So um my so my path here I come in here um they knew I was lateral they knew I had prior experience and uh my first my very first FTO field training officer so you go to the academy for in our department you go 23 weeks academy then you graduate and you have to do 15 weeks where you ride with another officer and get graded every day on how you're doing and you have to pass that yeah it's you have to pass that to then be a cop on your own. So my very first trainer had worked in the PIO office and knew the current PIO commander when he found out I have that experience he introduced me right away like a few weeks into my training um also ended up the because of that various things I ended up going to a luncheon with that PIO commander and the chief of police there's there's a few hundred people in our department who've never met the chief and I got to meet him just a few weeks into my career. Oh my gosh huge huge uh benefit very exciting um name recognition and face recognition it means something it's sometimes not what you know it's who you know so um then later on when I applied to PIO he had met me he'd had a conversation with me so he knew who I was so he felt comfortable like yeah we'll give him a shot at the PIO office. So uniform patrol because of my kid schedule I didn't we'd work eights in Omaha so you worked either day shift afternoon shift or overnight shift. I always worked overnights on the road because I didn't like missing kid activities in the evening. So I could be home with the kids, put the kids in bed then go to work Overnight. We actually take them to school in the morning, then sleep during the day while they're in school, get out, pick them back up after school, and do that kind of thing on my weeks. But I got into that negotiator role. I applied and was accepted as a negotiator while on the street. So I would work the street, but then the radio would say, hey, there's a barricade at this address. They're calling for a negotiator. And I would go respond to that and then get the phone out starting the negotiations. Really enjoyed that. And then promoted to sergeant, still got to do that. And now currently I'm the lieutenant. I'm actually the commander of all the negotiators now. So I supervise the team.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Oh my gosh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Yeah. I don't I don't get to be on the phone as much because I need to I'm supervising and directing and liaisoning with the SWAT commander. Um, but I'm still very much a part of the team. And I was just on a bridge with a jumper a few weeks ago um because I was the closest one to respond. I was the second one there. Um so sometimes I still get in on the action part of it, but usually I'm directing and guiding and facilitating. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

God, I shouldn't I'll I'll cut this if the answer is not what I think, but the that one ended successfully, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:08

It did. Um Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

No doubt.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Ironic ironically, though, it was a stroke, it was a strike to my ego because the majority of time in my law enforcement history, if I show up on a call with another officer and we're getting into a banter with the person, suspect, subject, consumer, whoever it may be, almost always I end up being a good cop. And they key and they key on the other person is they don't like them, but they like me, and we play that off, and then I become their friend to build rapport and get get what we needed to get. Almost always. I think so much it went to my head. On this particular call, this gentleman, this bridge, hated me. Um and he he also On site? Yes, he had a thing with males. The first officer was a female, the first negotiator is a female, he was interacting with her. I show up, he's already mad at me. Um, and then it it got complicated because we got a hold of some family and found out he was diagnosed um schizophrenic, and he would just yell things at me and like I'm not 31, I'm 29. I'm like, I didn't I didn't say anything. Finally, the the negotiator with me, she's like, Hey, uh LT, I think he's um hearing voices and he thinks it's you. I'm like, oh. And so finally he says, if you leave, I'll come down. So I was like, okay. So I swapped out, I swapped out with a female officer as a backup, and I told the female officer, hey, just follow her lead. I'm gonna go get out of here. And I was gone for about a minute, a minute and a half, and he came down. So and I'd been there for like an hour and a half. So if I'd have known me leaving would have got him down, I would have left that left the hour before.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

But there's a really great Scarecrow and Mrs. King episode where they play good cop, bad cop, and she says she's gonna be the bad cop. Do you know that show at all?

SPEAKER_03 46:52

That's king, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Okay, so she's like the nicest person in the world, but she's gonna be the bad cop. They do it for like two seconds, they walk out of the room, she's like, So I should be I should be good cop, right? He's like, Yeah. Yeah. Um do you have connector? Connection. Is that one of the strengths?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Connectedness, yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Connectedness, do you have that one in your top five?

SPEAKER_01 47:15

I have my top five are context, harmony, communication, connectedness arranger.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Whoa, I don't even know some of those.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Um Yep, so I'm a Gallup Strengths coach. If we want to geek out in Gallup for a while, our department, which is cool, we partner with Gallup. And so Really? Yep. So I got certified through my department as a Gallup Strengths coach. I every incoming academy class we do, I run the whole class through their assessment, get them all through their assessment so we know their strengths. And then um from time to time, team leaders will reach out to me. They're a some type of supervisor, uh, sergeant, lieutenant, one of the civilian supervisors, and they'll say, Hey, can you give me my team grid? I want to see my whole team in a grid. And then sometimes I'll do team coaching sessions where I'll go in and coach with the team about we'll do a strength some strengths building exercises, um, and then some one-on-one coaching as well. Um, people interested in specialty positions or promotions, or like how do I maximize who I am? We'll do a coaching session to help them, help them find success based on their talents, strengths. So uh context is usually um history. Um a lot of history buffs have context. For me, where context shows up is to get to know you, I want to know where you've came from. So if I know your story, then I feel connected to you. Um, that's how context works for me, which can I think that plays into why I've had success as a negotiator as well. I want to hear your story. Yeah, tell me about it. I want to hear all about it. Sometimes it can be annoying on like radio calls because I partnered with people who did not have context. So, like we'd show up and there'd be a couple, one has bloody knuckles, one has a black eye, and my partner would be like, Okay, we're going to put the one with the bloody knuckles in handcuffs. And I'll be like, when did you first meet? And because I want to hear so, but yeah, that's that's context. Um, harmony is next. Harmony is um just like it sounds harmony is you want people to get along, and I want people to get along.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Peacemaker.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yes, and usually people with harmony avoid conflict. And sometimes I I do that in personal life. I don't want to deal with fighting kids or I don't want to have the argument with my spouse because I just whatever. But for law enforcement, you can't really avoid conflict, it's kind of essential to the job. Um, but what I've learned is that for me, um, I am more than willing to dive into that conflict because I want the harmony on the backside. I know once we deal with this, we're gonna have peace afterwards. So let's get it over with and get to that peaceful spot. So that's how my harmony. And then also that liaison piece. I realize in hindsight, that's why I enjoyed the being the community liaison in Casper, because I was harmonizing between the community and the department. And I find myself doing that a lot now. My current role, uh, I do a lot of that. I'm uh the internal affairs commander as well, currently.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

And so oh boy, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

So I do a lot of harmonizing um with police management and the a police officers association or union, who are sometimes at odds, and I'm I tend to be stuck in the middle of being a peacemaker and work it through that. Um yeah, context harmony communication is pretty self-explanatory. I enjoy communicating. I need communication to feel fulfilled. Um connectedness is, I think, in systems. Um, it's probably also why I'm okay in internal affairs, is I'm a little more biased towards the department and management because I think about not just officer, what you're doing, how that's affecting you right now on this call, but how is that affecting all of us? How is it affecting the department? How's it affecting the community? I think that way. That's how connectedness is we're all everything you do is affects everyone else, and we're all connected somehow. Um, versus there's also a strength called individualization where you're better at one-on-one focusing in, I think more in systems and group, I guess. And then arranger goes along with that as well. Yeah, I don't know that one. Arranger is you can look at a group and and you're good at knowing who fits where. Um like team development and putting people in the right spots, arranging things so they function well.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Oh yeah. So we I'm gonna have you back sometime with your really wide open schedule. And you should can you collect Clifton Strengths Me? Like I I already know my if if unless you want to redo it, but but I don't really know what to do with it, what to do with them. Like I have maximized order.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Yeah, we can do a we could do a quick uh uh some strip some strengths exercises and help you. The the biggest thing when I tell people about Clifton Strengths, it's like it's like several. Um there's lots of different personality tests and in law enforcement, a lot of um trainings, they do disc. Um we have we have people do Enneagram. There's different ones like that. Gallup, Clifton Strength Finder, they score you into 34 themes. And I just share the top five, but you do all you can do all 34 if you want. But basically, it's showing what you're the best at. And the idea, Don Clifton had this idea, what if to help people find success, we had them focus on what they're good at, not what they're bad at? The theory being um you have some skills you can really do well, and some you don't do so well. And you want to improve, you want to get a promotion, you want to just have more success at work, you want to have better sales, better people skills, whatever. So a lot of people think, well, I need to work on these things I'm not good at and make them better.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

But if you put all your energy into this and you get this a little higher, what happens to the skills you're actually good at? They're they're gonna actually decrease because you're not using them. So what you end up is you end up very mediocre by working on by working on your weaknesses. You should work on to developing weaknesses, and there's things you should have discipline and work on. But if instead you recognize what am I naturally good at? What what just comes to me? In my case, communication is one of my biggest strengths. I am naturally good at communication. I'm gonna find a way to leverage that to then find success.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

This is what I absolutely love about employee valuations. When they they are are compared, it's you against your job description. And so where are you weak in your job description? Let's get you better at it. And I think that's such a waste. It should be what are your strengths? How can we shift your job description to and then pass off the things you're not great at to the person who is, and a very connected um it should all be connected. Unemployee valuation should not be this individual thing, and I just really really hate them. But I'm not an I'm not a W-2 employee at the moment, so I'm not actually complaining about my workplace when I say that. I want to ask about the um do I the I I I like to ask people, were you ever told what you should be? And you've already told us you were told that a lot. Yep. How hard would you say you had to fight against that? And are you still? Do you feel really settled or do you still worry about bumping into someone who's gonna challenge that?

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Um, I feel settled now just because of complete life changes. Um, I coming to Omaha was a re a reset and start over, new new church community. Um, so a lot of strangers. So they only know me as Joe, the cop who also plays bass at church. Um, they don't know me as Joe, who was supposed to be a pastor and didn't fulfill his calling, and now he's just a lowly cop on the, you know. Um, and I don't know, honestly, I still have a lot of friends and family from the past that some of the had said those things to me. I don't know what they feel or think now, but I'm completely secure. I know I'm very content and happy and feel fulfilled in what I'm doing, and I feel that's what I'm supposed to do. I I do think I grew up thinking you have to find this one finite calling, like a railroad track, and if you get off it, your life's ruined. You got to stay on the track. And that was a lot of anxiety and pressure for me to figure that out. I now in hindsight thing, there's probably a half a dozen things you could do in your life that fulfill your calling on who you are, and you could be fulfilled and happy. Um, but I definitely think for me, law enforcement is is definitely a and I very much appreciate the financial security piece of having a solid steady paycheck. I do not have an entrepreneurial bone in my body that scares the bejesus out of me. Um I like a steady paycheck. I like the idea of a set pension, so I know I have security in my future when I retire. Um, so those it just goes hand in hand for me.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

So you believe uh being in law enforcement is a calling. Do you believe everyone has a calling that's that specific?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Uh I don't I don't think so. Um and sometimes I envy people who I who don't feel that way.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

No.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

I my wife and I got in tonight because I was getting calls from another agency, I was getting a call from our agency, um, and I felt like I need to sort those problems out rather than just be present with my kids at dinner time. And um so some that that draw I wish I was better at letting go. I've worked with people who had I worked with a great guy in PIO. He was a great PIO, but when he was off, he was off. And he says he has um some people have FOMO, you know, but and I'm more of a FOMO guy. What am I missing out on? Fear of missing out. He has I he's like, I believe firmly in Jomo. And I'm like, well, what is that? He's like, I have the joy of missing out.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Yes, I have heard that. I forgot I'd heard it.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

He um Mike Pecca love him to death, he has a like quarter acre pollinator garden in his front yard that he's he planted with native Nebraska plants himself.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Uh it's it's been featured in magazines and um the key is he only has the mow like half his yard now, but he also has a pollinator garden, so it's great for the environment for pollinators, um, birds and bees and all that. And he said, I'll be sitting in my garden and I'll hear a police car go by lights and sirens on the interstate, and I'll think, I don't need to know what that's about. Um, what would you do? I'll be like, what's going on? I'm I'm the option.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

So would you pick up the call? Would you pick up a phone and actually like check in?

SPEAKER_01 57:32

I have sometimes. Um I'm it the longer you're in the job, I think it's easier to let go. But then also I aspire to more higher leadership, and the more leadership you have, the more you are involved in things and get notifications like what's happening this evening. Um, so there's part of me that like I wish I didn't feel like so much called to it because then I I I I was sometimes not as present as I should be for my family. Um, I had another friend, I did not understand this in Wyoming. Good friend grew up with him. He ended up moving to Wyoming as well, um, at a different time period, but we lived there at the same time. And he worked for a machinery company and he literally like got parts off a shelf, put them in a box, and shipped them off to somebody. And good job, good paying job, and very stable company. But I I just could not fathom, like, I didn't see any fulfillment in that. And I remember asking him one time, like, how do you just go to work and just like ship stuff? And he's like, Well, because I get paid to do it, and then I come home and spend time with my family and I go camping on the weekend and I go have fun and I don't think about work. He's like, I just work a job so I can have time with my family. I'm like, wow. And there I think there's a very special piece to that. I think he would identify, I don't think he'd identify himself as a a parts shipper. I think he'd identify himself as a husband and a father who likes spending time outdoor and going on hikes with his kids, but it takes money to do that. And so sometimes I wish I was more that way because I do feel I get very invested in, you know, when when I prepare for promotions, um, the testing process to get promoted is pretty rigorous. And I'm I want it very bad and I'm very invested. So, like when I'm promoted to sergeant, since communication is how I operate, to practice for part of the process, I would practice like giving a speech basically. You you present to a panel on some issues. They give you some issues, you sort through them, make some notes, and then you present how you'd handle it. And it's called an assessment center. Well, so for me, communication, I do best just doing run throughs. I just I process it out loud. And so I need to do a lot of those to feel like I was confident. So it was for two months, every night after the kids went to bed till 10 or 11 or midnight, I just did that at the kitchen table for two months every night. And so um not when that that was over, Raven, my wife was like, Can we watch a show now? That you're this this is over because it was but I was just so driven and so wraps I get wrapped up in it. Um so yeah, I do think it's a calling. Some are better at than others um about being able to let go when you're not on duty. Um, and sometimes I wish I was more that way. Um, I am actually working to be better about that, by being present and not sucked into the job at home.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Decentering work.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Um do you so what is your goal?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

Uh my goal is to raise healthy kids who are successful. I put a little pressure on my kids to be successful because I felt like I caught on to the you have to make decent finances to be secure late in life. And so um I've pushed my kids to find career successful, stable careers earlier. Um but I want to I don't want to see my kids succeed. That's like a basic school. I have a lot of kids. I have six kids, so it's a lofty goal. They're probably not gonna all make it, but um hopefully half half to three quarter anyway. Um, but that's my pro I I want my kids to be healthy. I want to um I want to I want to live the rest of my life with my wife, Raven, and enjoy that. And I want to enjoy retirement. I will I want to do better at enjoying life now. Um because of not to play the victim mindset, but because of some of my decisions and some personal issues early on, I still like I'm feeling dig still digging out of financial instability and I'm getting to a good place. And so I want to get there so that I can enjoy the now and not just wait till retirement. Um, because I'm gonna be old when I retire from OPD. I started here late. So if you you can retire full pension in our department's 30 years. So if you got hired at 21, at 51, you could retire with 75% of your highest salary as a pension for the rest of your life. That's pretty good at 51. Because then you could go get a you have time to go get a whole second career if you want and be making be making almost double money and be very secure. I missed that window. I started too late here due to life decision. So I want to get to the place now, and I work too hard at times now to dig out of my hole faster so that I can get that stability now and enjoy it now before retirement. But yeah, I want to enjoy life with my family, I want to see my kids succeed, and I want to make a difference. Um significance is not super high for me, but I do feel that like I want a legacy, I want to, I want to be remembered well, I want to leave the department better than I found it. Um, in particular, what's what drives me right now is leadership development. Um, we don't have much formal leadership development in our department. You have to go to outside places to find classes and trainings, and so my goal, career goal here is then when I leave this department, I will have helped move that needle to more leadership development with internally with the department.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

So when the day after you retire, what will your calling be then? Or will you be, oh, now I'm one of those people who just can be at peace because I don't really have one.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

Yeah, I can finally enjoy my pollinator garden and yeah. Um Raven did plant a pollinator garden. That's really nice. We do we get yeah, we have we have milk, we do get monarch butterflies every year now that hatch out of our milkweed plants. Great. I love butterflies. Um yes, one to enjoy time. Um I will be older when I retire, so I'm gonna want to enjoy those last years, not at fast-paced. But I think also I will have at that point decades of um law enforcement slash government leadership experience that I feel like I'm gonna want to share. And so I think that won't mandate internally, won't change. So I don't know what it looks like practically. Um, probably some type of lecturing or training classes. There's several organizations that do good training where they guys retire and they go on a lecture circuit basically and teach classes for leadership development. So probably something like that part-time.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

It would be a way to travel to go see different places on somebody else's dime.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

So you're really never gonna leave it, the calling for yeah. We didn't even talk about that. You are a teacher, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

I am. Um, I'm an adjunct professor for Bellevue University, uh, which is a community here. Uh, I've only taught one class so far. They when I got hired, they were looking for a day shift guy, and I was just about to get a day shift job, so they it it went to the another guy, which is fine. But they said, hey, let's put you on the roster. You can teach an online class sometime, get some experience. So I taught an online basic criminal justice and courts class, but it was a lot of fun. And that was I not loving school, I never really thought I'd like teaching. But again, similar when you find school that benefits you personally and professionally, it's like, oh, I can I have a I can understand why I'm doing this. I felt the same about teaching. Um, I teach, I'm certified to teach ethics. I teach ethics to our supervisors. So when supervisors get promoted, they have a basic, a basic class for their both sergeants and lieutenants. I teach them ethics. Um, I also do Gallup Strengths with them. And now my current role is internal affairs. I do an internal affairs presentation, which is now rolled into this um leadership development training I'm gonna do with uh with the union on on coaching and mentoring officers as a supervisor. And uh so that I enjoy because I enjoy the subject matter. I it fulfills me. And so I I've worked on those, the teaching aspect of that. And then for the college stuff, there was a for me as a already being a cop going through college, I could tell which of my professors had done the job and which were just working off of theory. And no offense to the theory people, academia is important and research is very important, and but there's a lot of people who just Gone to school and learned how to do research, gotten degrees and titles and then now teach, which is fine. But then you have guys who clearly were on the job for a whole career and saw dark things and experienced it, and then come in and teach a class, and the there's a different presentation, there's a different understanding of material. And so honestly, I felt like that's something I could do is give back. I could, if I can help teach these criminal justice classes, not just from an academia standpoint, but also from lived experience, I think that'd make a difference for my students.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

I love that. I I'm gonna ask a a question I kind of had at the beginning, and you sort of answered, you kind of went there a little bit. I wonder what misunderstandings you feel that the public has about law enforcement. Also whichever way you want to go, but I'm wondering if people who might want to go into law enforcement also have misunderstandings you would be interested in dispelling.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Um yeah, that's a pretty loaded question. I know. And I will I will open this conversation by saying that I am a white Protestant heterosexual male. So I'm the least discriminated class going. Um, so I do not have the lived experience of a lot of people, particularly uh minorities and those who are persecuted against in our country. Um I think the biggest misconception is, and you could go over a range of topics, but it's just um the reason we believe in community policing is because it's hard to be mad at someone that you know and get along with. And like, so if you go sit down with me and have coffee and we talk about life and our kids and sports our kids are in, and that we play both play bass guitar, it's hard to see me as a badge and a uniform, but you see Joe. And so that's we do a lot of that to help the community understand, hey, we're not just Gustapos out, we're enforcing laws. We care about our community. This is the way we care for it. We enforce these laws and we keep people safe. And sometimes that means harsh things like taking people to jail when they break laws, but that's how we do our part. Um, vice versa, cops can become very jaded because you're only dealing with negative parts of society.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

I was gonna ask about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

Because you're only dealing with um good people on really bad days, and then you're dealing with just bad people. And so um I think it's very easy for law enforcement, especially without good support systems, especially not without proactive um physical and mental and um psychological health monitoring, can get very jaded and cynical, and then that leads to negative interactions. Um, a great book, if you're interested in law enforcement, is uh by Dr. Gil Martin is Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement. And he talks about taking those proactive steps to be healthy so you don't get um sick and die of a heart attack from the stress, and then also so you don't get jaded and make really bad decisions because you're angry and jaded. So it's a twofold, it's a two-fold street. The community just needs to understand that cops are real people that just care about the community, want to help. And then cops need to understand that not everybody's bad and that a lot of it just is communication. Sometimes if you'll just take, I would tell my recruits when I was a field training officer, I said, I will take 10 more minutes to talk someone into handcuffs than to fight them into handcuffs. So some people like, I've told you you're going to jail. If you don't submit, I'm gonna, we're gonna go to the ground and I'm gonna wrestle you in a position to handcuff you, which is legal and fine and sometimes sometimes necessary. But you can also try to reason and explain and humanize and build some rapport and then get them to comply. And I was definitely always that more that way. You can't always, I've had to fight a lot of people because sometimes people just don't listen. But when it comes to police community rations, I to me that's the biggest separator. And there's a lot of dynamics, there's racial dynamics, um, financial dynamics, just different cultures. Omaha is a very, very, very um wide variety of cultures. Here in Omaha, we have a lot of refugees from all over the world, so we get a lot of different cultural influences, and so there's a lot of just unknowns and misunderstandings from culture to culture. Um, and how in our refugee populations, how law enforcement was in their country is they're gonna bring obviously that bias with them, and that's what they're expecting.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

So you have to work through and overcome that. So it really it's just a lot of give and know give and no things. It's like somebody at work. You have somebody at work, you don't know very well, but they drive you nuts, you can't stand them. If you make a concerted effort to spend time with them and humanize them and learn from them, um, truly be empathetic, try to walk in their truths, try to understand where they're coming from, it's hard to it's hard to not like them. You may not, but you're not gonna feel the same. So, police community relations to me is just that getting people to sit down at the table, talk together, spend time together, and like, oh, okay, yeah, I get it. Um that's another reason I like Gallup's strengths, not only for the positives of how do I find my strengths, but you also recognize why people are so different. A common example is um activator, is just like it sounds. Um, we need to go, we need to go buy new curtains. Okay, let's go Home Depot's open for two more hours, let's go pick some curtains. The spouse may be a deliberator. A deliberator likes to take a lot of time and gather a lot of information before making decisions. So they're like, no, we can't go to Home Depot tonight. I need to read five better homes and garden magazines. I need to read seven blogs, and then I need to do four color palettes on the wall, and they'll make a decision. So, spouses, if you have an activator and a deliberator, are often odds on decision making because one which wants to go and one wants all the information. The one that wants to go says you're wasting time and being too picky. The one that wants deliberate says you're just making brass decisions we're going to regret later. That can lead to a lot of conflict. Well, if you sit down and realize I'm an activator, I like to make quick decisions. Oh, I'm a deliberator, I need a lot of information. Okay. We understand that now by each other. One of we're not, neither one of us is wrong or right. We're just different in how we process and how our minds work. Now we can try to work together consciously and proactively to manage that and find peace rather than just be mad. So that works in couples, that works in work relationships. A lot of work conflict is that just very different. We would describe it, oh, he just has a different personality. Well, if you actually break that personality down, I can describe it quantifiably of yeah, he is um he is input, and a person with strong input needs a lot of information before they'll move on anything. So you want so you can't just pitch my idea. You're gonna have to bring him research studies, bring him data, bring him examples, let him digest all that, have a second follow-up conversation after the digesting of data, and then you'll get somewhere. Just recognizing things about that people can make things a lot smoother.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:06

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

So all that plays into community, police community relations. A lot of it's misunderstanding. Um, and police, unfortunately, a lot of police are not good at explaining it. They just they know what they know. Well, this is how it works. This is the law. Well, I didn't know that's a law. You might have to explain it. Well, this is the statute number, this is where you can find it, then you research it. Um, and so it's a two-way street. It takes both of us being willing to come together. And we have a great program in Omaha, um, a restorative justice program. If you're arrested for a minor offense, let's say um disorderly conduct, you're intoxicated, you yelling and cursing and making a fool. You didn't like punch anybody, so no assault charges, but you're out of control, causing problems, so the police arrest you to quit causing problems for everyone and they charge you with disorderly conduct. That charge can then go before the city prosecutor. And if you request it or they offer it, you can go through a restorative justice program where they'll offer that the officer that arrested you, and they can either say yes, or they can say, I'd rather have a um surrogate. So either the officer that arrested you or a surrogate officer goes through a four-hour class with you and other people in the same situation, and you talk about emotions and feelings and decision making. Then you sit face to face together, and you say, I was mad you arrested me because I was just drunk having a good time. And the cop says, You were swinging a flower pot around and almost hit people, and people were scared for the safety of the public. I had to arrest you. Oh, now we have both perspectives, and we talk about it, and we can come to a peaceful consensus. And then that's a diversion program where if you're willing to go through that program, they'll wipe away the charge.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

So it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

Yeah, it's a great program. It helps people out with minor offenses, maybe first-time offense, they just didn't, you know, and it's not gonna be a record the rest of their life. And then it helps humanize officers as well because they get that face-to-face contact, and the officer explains, I'm not just some jerk out there arresting people. Like you almost hit these other people. You were drunk and didn't realize that I had no choice, I had to take you into custody. And they're like, oh, okay. So you're not a jerk, you're just doing your job trying to help other people. You're right. I was pretty drunk. I'm sorry. And it's if there was more of that community-wide all the time, we'd be in a better place. Um, there's also Omaha, like, listen, you got to put join opd up. Um, that's a link. For our recruiting, we are hiring. We need more officers, so be come work for our great department.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

Um joinopd.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

Yep, just joinopd.com. Um, we also have a group called Omaha 360. They meet every week. It's community activists, community groups, and law enforcement. They have a meeting. Law enforcement talks about recent violent crime and concerns, answers questions. Then the community members say, okay, what can we do to help? What services can we provide that could help prevent some of this violence or stop retaliations? Um, they've been doing that for several years, and that's a big we believe our community partnerships in Omaha contribute highly to our proud record of currently this year in 2026. We have the lowest crime rate of any um city over 500,000 population in uh in America.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

So that's amazing. I love that. Is is Omaha 360 a link? Is there a link for that?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:22

You can find Omaha 360. It if you just Google it, Omaha 360, you'll find it. Some other cities have picked up the model. Kansas City is doing it now, New Orleans is doing it. A few other cities have picked it up. Um, it's it's run through the empowerment network. So if you do Omaha Empowerment Network, you can find it as well. Great organization. And it's that piece I'm talking about. It's like, hey, cops are out here arresting people. Community members want safe communities. How about we work together and find out how we can support each other? Because we're just cops. We just mostly arrest people. A lot of these problems are not just a crime problem, it's a uh support program. It's getting kids into activities to keep them out of gangs. It's all kinds of positive stuff that we need to work together on. So I I just love that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:04

That speaks to my harmony big time.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:08

Totally. So um, so you probably couldn't do it with your seven-year-old self, but maybe a little older, could you look back now and say, I can see this in you? Yeah, the things you need to be what you are today.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:26

Um, yeah, honestly, pastoral work and law enforcement are very similar. You're dealing with people in that are need some help and are coming to you for help or trying to provide guidance. Um, maybe not throwing people in jail. Pastors don't do that a lot. But that some of those same aspects, being able to communicate, being able to work through problems, be able to face tough issues. Like you gotta pastors don't arrest people, but they sit down with people who are in really, really bad situations, try to walk them through it uh in a different support system. Uh having hard conversations is a um, I think I take for granted as a strong communicator how difficult hard conversations are. Um I think I just the ability to talk to anyone and say anything and not care, but also try to deliver it in a professional way, I think is something that I recognize as a young person. And then obviously working in a youth home doing verbal de-escalation with kids and that natural skill is very applicable into law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:24

Is there something like that that a person could look for in themselves to know that they might be suited? Especially I'm wondering the um the easy path to cynicism in law enforcement. Is there something that you can see in yourself already that you might be able to handle that?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:42

Um yeah, I think you have to have a high tolerance for um not high tolerance for high emotion, but you have to be calm in the midst of high emotion.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

If I'm just be I'm an emotional person, but with stress, I like zero in. It's it's weird. Um even going through some I talked about in the past about some personal struggles, I'd like people to reach out to me like, you don't seem like anything's bothering you, but you're going through some pretty big life changes. Divorce is a pretty big deal. Like, what's going on? But that's for me, stress just like it's just sewn in and I lock in, which is useful in law enforcement because you gotta, because then you can if you're escalated and emotions out of control, it's hard to make good cognitive decisions. So the ability to stay calm in the middle of pressure and stress is good. So laid laid back people, people who are very calm, that's a very natural thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:35

Um who would think? See, that's to me kind of a misconception that a laid back person is who you want in law enforcement. And someone who's kind of volatile might think that's my jam because I want to go arrest people or something, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:52

And a lot of cops are the what we call the type A personality. You think of them as bossy and telling people what to do and badge heavy. That's like the stereotype, right? And some are that way. But to have longevity and success, you gotta be able to put up with a lot. And um, particularly like in this day and age, the 50 years ago, people weren't maybe act treat cops like that, but people have no problem. We just had an officer the other night, he rolled up to a street takeover where they're doing hot hot rod cars in an intersection and thought he'd roll up and turn his lights and sirens on, they'd all run away. No, they attacked the car, they sprayed it with fire extinguisher and started shaking it. And um, the the respect for law enforcement culturally is very different than it was in years gone by. So you have to be able to take a lot of people calling you names and fighting and arguing. You can't let that you have to thick skin, not let that bother you, I guess, in a sense. Um definitely calm demeanor and be able to work through stress. Um and just you have to be good ethics, good morals, and you have to be mentally strong. And that's something you can't develop. Um you can work work through that. Um, but you see a lot of terrible things, and you have to be part of a lot of terrible things that are can be hard on your psyche. And um so you have to be able to be prepared for that, and then also know, recognize in yourself when the okay, I'm not okay with this, and now I need to go get help and get get healthy again.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:17

So do you something you said makes me wonder if you struggle with something that I noticed in myself. I think I might have that as well, that high stress is I can handle because I I don't know, you I would spiritually I would say you get the grace for it or whatever. But what I found then is that a boring life is when I struggle. Because okay, you would feel that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

Yeah. Probably sometimes I do I induce stress on myself because I feel I function better there. Kind of like procrastinate. Some people procrastinate because they like to write the paper when they're pressured versus just developing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:00

Yeah. I just I tend to say monotony in life is more than is I hate that more than trouble almost, which is not not great. I actually heard a therapist talk to someone once on a on a kind of a podcast situation, and she said that that might be part of that person's problem at work. You want to feel high, high or low, low, or you're not and you kind of probably need to learn that fine is okay. And I I'm kind of getting there more as I as I age.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

I'm trying, trying to I work, I work a lot of side jobs doing security. Um, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

We didn't talk about Billy Eilish concerts and stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:43

And some of those are boring. So I do some concerts, I do some sporting events, those are fun. I'm gonna I will be at College World Series this week if you're gonna be an Omaha for College World Series. Um Friday night, all day, Saturday. I'll probably put some tweets out, come to my gate, say hi if you're around. Um, but then I also do some boring things like I work at a grocery store for a few hours and it's in a good neighborhood, and there's not a lot of problems, and so it is pretty boring. And people always say, Oh, you gotta be so bored. But then I say, you know, bored is actually good in my line of work because that usually means safe.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Uh-huh. But yeah, it's definitely, and there's there's cops like that, they're the adrenaline junkies, and so if there's not something going on, they make something happen, uh, good and bad. Um, proactivity is really good, but you don't want to be a dangerous adrenaline junkie in this job because there's plenty of stuff that gets you hurt if you're not careful.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

Yeah. I I've learned this new phrase, this new word that I love, cohesion. Um, it's in the book How to Build a Meaningful Life. And they say, um, cohesion are these moments in life when who you are, what you're doing, and what you believe are kind of all aligned at once. It's not all the time. We can't all have it all the time. What would you say are the um the times in life right now that are most cohesive for you? Is it in love for m the times in life, moments in life. Like is it when you're when you're negotiating, when you're with your kids?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:07

I don't know, but negotiating, which I don't get to do the prime the primary negotiators with that. You're actually the one on the phone talking. I feel cohesion with that. I don't get to do that as much anymore since I'm a leader now, but um leadership moments, working liaison work. When we have a tough case where an officer might be in some serious trouble and the union's pretty worked up and the management's pretty firm, being that guy in the middle to try to make peace and understanding and make it go smooth, um, and help the officer come out better on the other side. Like getting in trouble at work shouldn't be about getting in trouble, it should be about um improving behavior and improving improving outcomes and making people more safe. And so helping people understand that, those moments I feel cohesion. Um networking, I really enjoy networking and and education now. So um I recently went through several leadership trainings through an organization called FBI Lida, and that was very fun um working on executive level police leadership stuff and learning about that and networking. Um, I feel a lot of cohesion there. Um definitely I'm a people person. So uh police management, police leadership is not as exciting as being a cop on the street. And people always joke like by the time you make it to a lieutenant, you're not really a cop anymore. You're just an administrator. You're just doing administrative supervisory tasks, which is pretty true. Um, but the the challenges aren't the citizens on the street every day, it's the personnel and staff and conflicts and managing and helping new officers learn and improve, and helping senior officers stay motivated and focused. And so um that people is where I feel cohesion working with people, leading, guiding, coaching, learning from. That's that's definitely and and that's why I say I I feel long as calling in law enforcement, law enforcement is a calling, but I think who I am in that aspect, I could have found fulfillment in other areas.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:04

Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:06

I think there's businesses I could have worked in where I felt the same way. Um, but I I'm very fortunate that I do enjoy it. I the occupation I am, I think it's it I do find fulfillment there. I tell people too, another part of Gallup strengths, you may be stuck in a job currently, maybe long term and maybe short term, where you're not getting to exercise your strengths as much. And so it's not not only you don't feel like you're finding success, but you don't feel fulfilled. And so if that's the case, you need to find fulfillment outside of work as well. Um, my wife Raven is she has a master's in divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary, but we have um still one little at home, and we made the decision together that she wanted to stay with the kids until school. And so she does not work full-time, but she has this ministry degree. She feels called to ministry, so she volunteers time as a chaplain, both with our department and uh the sheriff's the sheriff's department in the community we live in. And that's again, it's volunteer. She's out there, she goes with death investigations and prays with family members and and helps them through that time. Um, I don't know that you call that a job because it's it's totally free, but that's the the ministry side of her and stuff that she's not operating in daily right now because she's raising our little boy, is she finds fulfillment another way. And so that's important too to recognize yourself. If my if my occupation, because I need the money, I need the bread and butter, if that's not fulfilling me completely, where do I find my I can exercise my strengths and be productive and feel fulfilled somewhere else?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:42

Exactly what I'm doing with this podcast.

unknown 1:27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:46

Great. That's great. I you're also reminding me go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

No, you go ahead you're reminding me of uh this Melissa Casera who I interviewed a bit ago and she talked about adjacencies, and so she said she has this identity, work identity that is storyteller. And she applies it a lot of different ways. She works with CEOs to help tell the story of their work. She actually tells stories to write scripts for television movies. And that's kind of what you're reminding me of that you law enforcement is a calling partly because of the the danger and the but leadership and that kind of thing is also is your calling and but you and you're applying it in law enforcement but you could have seen it other other places. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:30

Yeah and one thing about one thing I want to touch on law enforcement's great and this is sounds like a sales pitch recruiting which it should be but um when you work in a big department you can have such a variety of if you don't fulfill fulfilled in one area you could try something else. So like for me communication it was easy for me to exercise communication as a street officer because you're talking about people 80% of police work's talking. So I already felt pretty fulfilled there. But I knew I'd feel even more fulfilled to get public information office and be working on press release writing press releases, um, talking to the press, doing presentations. And so I geared myself that way. So that's something totally different than line level stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

Then there's also um I did a stint in our backgrounds unit where we're hiring people. So you're not you're working with applicants and you're interviewing applicants and supervising detectives that are doing they're doing an investigation on a background to see if you've got any skeletons in the closet we can't live with and that kind of thing. So again totally different it's investigative work. It's still police work but it's for police applicants not criminals that are going to go to jail. So it's a very different feel different skill sets. Then of course you have detectives where you're doing more more versus just live triaging on the scene sorting out disturbances, you're actually digging into cases and researching and doing more some people enjoy that. Some people are more uh analytically minded than communication minded and so then you could get into like a fraud unit where you're having to do deep um paper trail work tracking down paper trails and money trails and that kind of thing. And if you enjoy that and that's very fulfilling that's another niche rule in law enforcement you could get into in a big department like ours. We have a full-time mounted unit where you just get to ride a horse all day.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:13

Oh what? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:15

We're one of the few departments left in the country that still have a full-time mounted unit. So in fact our mounted unit is um there'll be a college world series they're all big events we have but they're going to go down to Kansas City for the World Cup and help out with some of the mounted units down there for crowd control. Of course we have a traffic unit if you like riding a motorcycle uh all summer long these guys go out and ride motorcycles and they you write speeding tickets and you pull people over but you get to ride a motorcycle all day um and then do parades. You do parades and like when the president's in town they'll do the motorcade escorts and um they escort the teams to the stadium for College World Series on their motorcycles. So again like if you love bikes you get a job where during the summer you ride bike all the time. We have a helicopter so you can if you want to be a pilot. Newer to our department now we have a lot of drones and so if you like technology you can be a drone pilot. We have a we have a real-time operations center so it's just like on the TV where you see like all the computer screens and TVs in the wall and you're watching this camera. We have cameras all over city that we're watching live and we now have drones that they can launch from that center. So they're watching cameras all over town a disturbance happens at this address they fly a drone to that address to see with the drone what's going on minutes before the officer can get there.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:33

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

Which has helped us triage like if there was a disturbance and then it's broken up and there's no real victims they can just cancel the call and the officer not even have to waste time going there. But then also we find suspects a lot faster. We've had a unfortunately we've had a lot of officer involved shootings the last few months um but the chief said something very poignant the other day he's like we have gotten a lot better at finding the bad guys fast and that puts our officers in the line of fire. It's dangerous for the officers we're having more officer involved incidents but we're catching the bad guys faster which is better for the community. So it's kind of an interesting so all kinds of things you can do. We have school reinforced officers who are just you just spend time to school and honestly spend a lot of proactive community relationship building with kids then sometimes you have to take enforcement action but mostly it's positive. Yeah I mean it's just a wide variety of things you can do in a big department that are very very different roles so you could feel like you're in a whole nother but still still be on the same pay scale and retirement plan and all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:34

So amazing yeah that's a classic um redesign your life thing is that sometimes you don't have to leave the work the organization if you can just redesign your role in it you might find your strengths more so uh I have uh so much to think about like I do with all of these conversations. Um let's go to the last bit it worked for me uh where you give you tell us something that worked for you once like an aha moment or it regularly works for you to help you maybe not find more meaning in life but center down on what the meaning for your life is.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:17

So aha moment for me was probably in that PIO role in Casper, Wyoming um where I knew okay yeah this is definitely what I was supposed to do. I feel the niche here and part of it I didn't know my strengths well then but now in hindsight looking back I know that's what's happening. One of the one of the exercises we do with what's called mining for strengths. And so to to identify with your strengths and recognize them so that you can then know how to use them, they call it um name it okay this is my strengths claim it this is how I know it's mine, how I operate it and then aim it. This is what I do is that strength.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:52

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:52

So one of the things you talk about is what's a time in your life an aha moment or a time when you were either working in a project personal life professional life where you felt like you were operating on all cylinders you were rocking it and you felt really good about it. So you were being successful and been fulfilled at the same time and we talk about that time in your life whether no matter if it's a season of a life or a certain certain incident and then as a group when you talk about that we tell you what strengths we heard you operating in that are in your profile. And then you realize oh that's that's it. So for me it was in hindsight now I know it was in that PIO role working with the community and the media so much I knew communication and and um liaison work was that that was where it was at I feel like I could make a connection between community and police and bring us together not further apart. And in that with my strong faith and and f feeling of needing new ministry as well I was like this is my I am doing ministry. I am salt and light to the community by being a positive influence um and and that was my aha moment. So that's what I knew I want to do it when I moved to Omaha I knew I was I'll just start from scratch but I'll recreate that get to that place again. And then it's more even more here to not just the PIO role but more so in leadership roles as I promote up to the department I know I'll carry with me. And for me what worked for me was that I think that finding something I enjoyed doing that I knew I could stick out for a 30 year career um and then that I just that I know I can I know I can succeed at this I have a skill set for it and I know I enjoy it it's gonna be fulfilling and what else can you ask for seriously I went through a phase of the young man because I love the outdoors so much I thought about getting into the outdoor space um a hunting guide or the goal was to be a you know hunting celebrity and get a TV show. That's what yeah um but one I think early on I recognize my talents and becoming a celebrity is pretty there's a lot of luck involved and a lot of entrepreneurial hard work. And then two I kind of wanted I thought to myself do I really want to do that for career or do I just want to say that as a hobby for myself for um my own fulfillment. So I decided not to pursue an outdoor career. I think I submitted one article one time then of course got rejected as a young man. I was like yeah I don't think I want to I don't think I want to do this. But the law enforcement for me was a ha ha and what worked for me was just that finding what I knew I liked and I could succeed at and enjoyed um and I think probably beyond the PIO role is when I liked going to college. Not you don't ever like it but when I was like doing college and I mean I got like straight A's in my bachelor's program I was like okay well if it's motivating me to do school I must be in a good niche.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:48

So I don't know what that looks like you found the work really before you discovered your strengths. Yes. So in some ways there's luck in that sort of yeah yes but so what if my listeners though are like I want to know my strengths can they just go to a website or is it you can you can go and just pay for it and do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:08

I would encourage you to find a coach to help you walk walk you through it. There's a lot of although the Gallup website if you pay for the the assessment and do it they do have a lot of um teaching tools on the website you can learn a lot about yourself just reading about yourself. But outside of happen even if I would encourage people to do any there are free ones out there um free strength like um personality profile things that can help you define a little bit of who you are and put a name to some things and I think that kind of helps some people um because basically you just want to find for me even though I didn't know my strengths when I was in that PIO position I knew cognitively I enjoy talking to people and listening to people I want to be on the roll I do that and I enjoy this connection piece of I called it being a liaison. I want to talk and be a liaison well looking at my gallop strength that's because I have communication and harmony and connectedness. I recognize that now from in hindsight so I uh for I if I would wish anything for people would be that find whatever that is whatever that whatever it is that drives you and motivates you and fulfills you and then find a way to make money out of that um whether it's a defined job or and that's why I tell people at cops when they're starting to burn out I'm like well let's talk about what you enjoy and what you feel good at and then let's see what job in the department we can plug you into where you can still still be a cop and enjoy that.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:26

Yeah I love that I think sometimes I take these personality tests and it's just like oh cool I see me but I maybe don't take that next step and figure out how to apply it what it means how to leverage it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:41

That's the lever the leveraging is the key um with the name it claim it aim it it's that aim it piece. Aim it yeah you can name it people will say oh I'm an Enneogram or whatever but if they don't understand what that means for them and how that is to find success in that it's not isn't no good. Same with Clipton Strength Finder if you do it's like another language if you don't use it a lot it doesn't help you. But if you understand it and you can identify with it and then use that like like for preparing for me for communication to prepare to promote I needed to know I need to say these things out loud several times until it's almost a memorized speech and and that's where I found success because I recognized that was my that's how I operate. So knowing how you operate how you learn how you process and how you can succeed is really important. So honestly the biggest thing is you gotta you have to know yourself to an extent and then um know what works.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:35

Yeah I had that experience with Enneagram because it was my least favorite I didn't love that one because it's it tends to highlight the negative like you at your worst looks like this. And I I think I'm a four which is the individualist kind of melancholy um artistic type which fits but I'm also I didn't really um relate to that the real melancholy side. But then I heard um Ian Crone talking about it and he's a four as well so he knows them very well and he talked about how we tend to live in our feelings and the antidote is to do something. Do something with your hands make a bed you know wash the dishes and I had already discovered of myself that when I for instance wash the dishes it could fix my mood and I didn't know why. I had no idea why and kind of resented it because I didn't want to wash the dishes all the time but and then that answered it for me. Oh that's why I live I'm living in my head and my feelings and when I you know do something um it really does fix it. And so that was the first time I realized okay wait these these can not just tell you who you are but how to get better.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:49

Yeah yeah yeah so one of the things we talk about with strengths is there's no negative strengths they're only positives because they're strengths. And so we don't we don't strength shame we if someone is like if you're an activator and a deliberator we don't tell each other well you're deliberate or you're wrong. No that's just their strength. So you find a way to make that work. So you and the heart behind that is strength shame. They because there can be weaknesses. So like we they don't like to call them weaknesses they sometimes they call them balconies and basements with strengths. So it's where does your strength make you really high succeed and where can it kind of drag you down? And for me like harmony stereotypically people with harmony avoid the conflict. Well that can that's very you have you can't avoid conflict in law enforcement if you do it's gonna cause problems.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:34

And so you have to just recognize that that can be a deficit to that strength or talent and so how do I stay on the positive side so that's and the way you did it is you want to get to harmony and you realized you got to face the conflict to get there. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:48

I I want peace so we're gonna we're gonna talk for it I and that's that's work life and per and personal life um you just you recognize that like in in my personal life it's like if there's some conflict or we're not eye to eye or I'm like we gotta hammer this out talk to it because we gotta get to the other side.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:07

So yeah. Okay. I don't even know what I'm gonna do. I do not want to cut one minute of this but we've been so long. Oh well people can just fast forward or I'll put the chapters in so people can um listen to what they want because I loved every second. I am so grateful to you. Thank you for being on my show and thank you for being um pretty much the best brother I am your only brother but thank you I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:37

I admire you deeply deeply well don't tell felicity and charity but you're always been my favorite yeah yeah you probably tell them that too I'll live with charity I'll take it I'll that's probably why you lived with her well I'm very proud of you for doing this podcast. I think it's definitely helping you operate in your strengths and uh I hope you get Joe Rogan rich from it so go work it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:06

Oh is that a thing I can make money from this tell me about that. Yeah oh man thank you so much for being here um and I will hopefully get to have you back.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:18

I'd love to be I'd love to do it talk to you later.