You Bring the Meaning with Carrie Gaines

Carrie Gaines and I have a shared work experience but very different relationships to work in general. We worked together in the grant-seeking and management department of a health professions university - a workplace that set the bar for both us when it comes to professional and supportive work environments. Carrie transitioned from her grants management role after getting new assignments at the University that piqued her interest even more. This is the story of her transition, the supportive response she received from the workplace she was leaving, and the internal work she finds most important of all. Carrie has been an inspirational voice in my work life - she's a soundbite a minute! I can't wait for you to meet her.

Chapters

02:56 Carrie's backstory, early understanding of work
05:30 Kid dreams and first experience with college
08:13 Finding what you like at work by doing it
10:08 Our shared experience in a positive workplace
15:34 How that workplace reacted to her new interests
18:01 Personality in the workplace ("I only extrovert for money")
25:50 Carrie leans into new interests and a work transition
30:34 Internal work first ("Wherever you go, there you are")
36:03 Personal responsibility in work experiences
44:50 Carrie's transition, a brand new track
52:33 If you want to work in compliance...
55:46 The importance of internal work (reprise)
01:00 Finding Meaning in Work
01:09:42 Talking to kids about work
01:12 Everything is going to be okay
01:15 It worked for me
01:16:44 We all have more in common than we think

Links

Carrie on LinkedIn
We took our Myers-Briggs assessment at 16 Personalities

I Do This For a Living is independently produced. 

@serenitylive

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to I Do This For a Living, a show that questions everything about work culture and asks how we can spend as much time and energy on the things that matter as we do on the things that pay. Sometimes the things that matter pay, and we'll talk about that too. I'm your host, Serenity Bohan. I started this podcast so I could have work I love. Today's guest is uh she also has a story about work choices. I'm anxious to get into it, but we have to somehow uh tell the people who you are. So I'm gonna start with your name, Carrie Gaines. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. I am very excited to have you too, which leads very well to my first question, which is gonna be the first way we're gonna kind of get to know you. So one month before I launched this podcast, you and I were having lunch with our friend Kelsey. And as we're getting ready to order, we had our menus, and I said, okay, as soon as we order, I want to hear how you like your new job. Because I don't know, we don't see each other a lot. So I don't know how recent the transition was, but for me, it was a recent transition that you had made. And you said, that will not be a problem. I love it. And then after we ordered, you started getting getting into the story, and I was fascinated, as I tend to be when I'm talking to you. And um I said, Will you be on my podcast? And you said, No. So my first question for you, Carrie, is why did you change your mind?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Well, I think that you know that you and I both feel um drastically differently about work, right? And I thought, oh, there's no way she wants my perspective on this because I don't always believe the same things that you do about work. So I thought that, you know, I'm like, well, I mean, somebody who really likes work may not be, you know, a great podcast person.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So but that you believe me that that's exactly what I want is like different perspectives. If I didn't believe you, I wouldn't have been here. Good, good. I'm so excited about this because now I will say, unfortunately for my work experience in life, most of the people I've interviewed have liked their jobs. And so I really need to get some more people who have some um stories more like mine. But I I love you have so much good perspective. I can't, I can't wait to get into it. You're also the first person I've had on the show who has a shared work moment with me. We worked together in the same department for three years, uh, six years ago. And um, I hope we're gonna talk about that workplace a little bit because there's a lot of positive things about the work culture from there that you I you and I both agree on. Yes. But one thing that I will say is when I joined that department, you were in a place of leadership. So really that positive work culture that I experienced there was partly you setting the tone. I mean, you were a big part of that, uh, setting that tone. So that's another reason that um I really admire you and have I'm excited about this conversation. Um, we're gonna start with backstory for you and try and get to know how you became the Carrie Gaines that we know today. So, what was your early understanding of work and jobs?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Sure. Sure. So maybe I have a little bit of a unique perspective from an early understanding of work and jobs, because my father, and in fact, most of the men in my family, and you know, more of the men worked than the women in my family, um, had a very unique job. He was a tow boat captain, and as was his dad, as was his brother, as was his cousins. So our idea of work was a little bit differently because our father actually worked away from home for, you know, 30 days at a time and was home for 30 days at a time. So maybe have a little bit of a skewed perspective on that because work didn't really come home to our home. So when my father was off work, he was off work for 30 days at a time. Wow. So work was a little different. And so was my my family, my grandpa, my uncle, my great uncles, you know, that type of thing. So work wasn't work was something that happened outside. I mean, aside from, you know, everybody grew up working in their homes and gardens and doing all that kind of stuff. But as far as employment as work, it was something that happened somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

So do you think it gave you a really compartmentalized view? No. I did you think to yourself, I'm gonna do that someday? I will work, but it'll be this other No.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

I never thought that at all. But I didn't view work as something that interfered with our life, I guess. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Right. Okay, very good point. Also, let's set the geographic stage. Did he did your father always work on the Mississippi? Mississippi, Missouri, and Ohio and Illinois. Oh, all over. Okay. Those were not just the Mississippi River. Yeah. Okay, okay. So I was trying to place like this Mark Twain image in people's minds, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Primarily the Mississippi. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

So how about you personally? What were your first like do you have a first memory of what you want to be when you grow up? Being asked that question. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

I mean, like everyone, I wanted to be a cowboy at first, right? I mean, obviously, who doesn't like everyone? She says a cowboy or a cowgirl, obviously, right? I was a horse girl for sure. Um, so initially that's what I thought I wanted. And then as I got older and learned more about my skills and just what I was good at, I thought, oh, I should, I should be a lawyer. And then I was in school for about a minute and a half, and I'm like, no, I should not be, uh, because I didn't enjoy school that much. And uh so, you know, now it probably is maybe a little clearer to you why I work so long in compliance rules, just you know, I can't wait to get into that and really understand you and how that fits.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

So starting with the lawyer thing, you say when you learned your strengths or your skills, you were thinking lawyer. What were they? What were the kinds of things about you that made you think lawyer?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Um, I think that I'm pretty good at taking in a lot of information at one time and synthesizing it into something that's a usable uh argument for lack of a better term. Maybe I was a little argumentative when I was younger. Um, probably still am, some people would say. But um yeah, I mean, I just felt like I could see what people were saying and wanted or needed and could sometimes maybe pick that apart a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

How early did you see that in yourself? That's kind of amazing. Um, probably in high school. Okay. Yeah. So did you do debate team or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

That uh we didn't really have one at our school, but I spent plenty of time debating people. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Argumentative piece. So then when you say you got to school and changed your mind about you mean college? Yeah. What did you not where how what was the process there? What did you not like? Uh I did not enjoy college at all the first time that I went.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

If that explains the first time that you went.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Right. So I actually quit school and worked before I went back and finished. What did you do when you quit? I I worked at um, well, you know, it was small town, so I worked at Walmart, Casey's, places like that, big box stores. And then I got a job with um an anti-por poverty um organization. I think now they're called Community Action Partnerships. And so I started in a lower level position there and worked and learned about grants compliance and management and program management and then made a transition. Uh, there was an opportunity at uh, you know, ATSU. And so that's how I got over there was through that grants management skills that I developed.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

That was in the grants department. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So you're you're like that third person who has told me kind of you discovered what you liked to do by freaking doing it. I and it's it's making me have thoughts about school and academia because it's just I I just I think that's the best way. It's definitely a very good way to figure out what you like to do, is doing it.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

After I had worked some and decided to go back to college, because I knew that there were gonna be opportunities that would be denied to me without, you know, degrees, obviously. Um school was very easy. Like really how to do school. Like I had, I mean, I don't want to say that it was very easy, but I didn't have the same challenges that I'd had as a young student as I did as a someone who had been in the working world for a while.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

You know, are you willing to tell us how old you were when you went back to undergrad? I'd have to think about it for a minute. I was in my 30s, I'm sure. You were in your 30s. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So do you think age had something to do with it? Was it just the goal, the end goal? Like you knew what you wanted to accomplish with your job?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

What I wanted to accomplish, I knew um how long I could afford for it to take me to accomplish that. So that was a big motivator. Um, and then um just being able to m manage myself better because of the things that I learned in my professional roles.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

So did you uh get the job first while you were still going to school?

unknown 9:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

I got the I got the job and then I went back to school. I I got the job in the sponsored programs department and loved the work, loved the people, and realized that if I wanted to make it to any next level, I was gonna need that degree to go with it. And so I did. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I that was specifically one of my next questions is so I was gonna say, when did you get on the track you were slaying when I met you? Because when I met you in this, so we'll describe sponsored programs is the is it too simplified to call it the the grants management department? I think it's the grant seeking and managing department for the university. Okay. Grant seeking and management for a large medical university that has several colleges of health professions um under it. And um, when I joined the team, it was on the grant writing side pre-award, and Carrie was leading the post-award department. In fact, one of my questions for you is Did you ever hate us for what we promised? So we we would write the grants and say, we're gonna do this and we're gonna evaluate it and prove this. Well, you had to say, we did it.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah. I think that they're in in the grants pre-award team, um, a lot of what they did was um how did I say it? I think I said it very diplomatically one time. I thought they did a good job of towing the line of being ambitious but achievable. Good. And so I always felt like like we were, unless we were stretching a little bit, there probably wasn't a need for the gap funding, right? For grant funding to to to fund the gap between where we were in a certain program or where we wanted to be. So I always felt like everything was a little bit aspirational but achievable. And I thought we had excellent leaders on the pre-award side and still do. Um, and that they would reach out and they're like, just how uncomfortable is this gonna make you if we put this in? You know, so they were very good at recognizing when something was going to be a stretch and just how big of a stretch is it. So we so we knew what type of resources to put behind it from a management perspective.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Do you did you get looped in as a matter of course or because they were that always like that was part of it? Looping.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Yeah, I feel like d definitely.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

I mean, I I mean, maybe some of the more uh traditional ones or ones that we had done often or continuation fundings or whatever, maybe less so there. But yeah, I would say that there was always, you know, a heads up and definitely if something seemed like it was gonna be just how big of a stretch is it?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So did you ever do the were they what did we call them? The it's funding opportunity summaries? Yeah. I thought that was a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Did you ever do those or did you did was that a totally pre-award thing? I mean, it was primarily housed in pre-award, but yes, I did one or two. I wasn't spectacular at them, but doing them makes you have a better appreciation for them and an understanding of how to communicate what's in them. Because I felt like those were um such a best practice. And if you knew how to read it, you knew how to talk to people about what the real chances were. So of securing, you know, extramural funding.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Funding opportunity summary is one of the things I'm most proud of having learned in that job. It's where we would examine a grant that's out there against basically a program at ATSU or or maybe not even one that was developed. And we would, as you said, something you discovered you were good at, taking lots of information and distilling it. That's what it was. We the grant um request would be 80 pages or something. And we would read through it and sum it up in it a page to two pages of um for university leadership. Here's what the grant is, here's our chances, here's how well it does or doesn't align with what we're doing or what we can do.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

And um you can spend three podcast episodes talking about how brilliant the the the former and current leadership of the sponsored programs department was because they knew their stuff and you know they they were a high functioning team and nothing but good things to say about that role.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

That's exactly where I was going next is um what worked for you there? What did you like about that department?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Well, first of all, it was um it was work worth doing, right? The work mattered in that we were creating opportunities at the university for our students, for our researchers. We were helping them to do the good work that the university does. So I always felt like that was work worth doing. Um I always think that's important. Um they were, I mean, every member on the team showed up and did their job every day. I mean, not everyone has that experience. And when I was thinking about how positively I feel about work compared to other people, I'm like, well, not everyone has that experience of showing up with high-performing, high functioning, qualified people who are also wanting to do their job. And I think that matters. And I think that speaks a lot to their team culture that they still have. I mean, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

That's what I what I say. It's one of the uh with large um which all with a large lead, it's one of the most professional and kindest or supportive um work environments that I've that I've experienced. And I mean, it could, it could be studied.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

It could be studying. They they are a best practice model. I mean, they the way they um manage people to care, people managed work, were accountable for work. I think about, you know, I know we're gonna talk a little bit about the pivot that I made away from grants compliance work to a different type of work. And I don't think that it would have been possible for me if I hadn't been working at that team, because when I got the opportunity that I did to learn about um HR-related investigations, they were fully supportive, right? It was a um a position within the institution, kind of a um like a team membership that you could belong, not team membership. I'm I'm making it sound weird. It basically there's um a pool of trained investigators and hearing panel members and advisors at the university. And when I got the opportunity to join that pool, um a the sponsor program's leadership was supportive of it when there was a chance to participate in the activities of that pool, whether it was, you know, evaluating a complaint or be they were completely and totally supportive of that. So I think that's a side effect of being on a high functioning team is that you do have more opportunity to try things or to learn things because there's just more coverage for for the workload and the workload distribution. And when you work with a bunch of high achievers, they you know, that's just how they are.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

So that's yeah, that's really cool. I um I just spoke to my sister Charity and she she was on in a workplace that took them through a work genius program where you learn your working genius and it led her to discover she was possibly not in the right job. And she ended up it kind of and I just applauded that work culture that they taught you a thing. They took you through a program that made you end up saying, Yeah, I'm not in the right place. That is really great. No matter what that means for you, you know, it's a it it was an extremely supportive and professional. I an extremely high functioning, I absolutely agree with you on that. Type A all across the board. Um I find that I I think I don't know how I would test, but I think I appear type A, but I'm not sure I am type A. So when I was actually in that environment, my discomfort level was a little high because I was no longer um rising above. Oh I was climbing.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

I'm like, okay, I gotta catch up. I I super interesting how many times in a week where um maybe you get uh feedback on something that you've done and it's positive or whatever that in in my current role. And I don't wanna, I won't say anybody's names, but I'll say initials that you'll recognize. And um, I got feedback on something a couple of weeks ago, and I'm like, learn it from JBC, learn it from the best, you know, or whatever. It's it's one of those things where you can where I look at many of my successes in my current role, and I can legitimately point to people who taught me how to do it that are still at the institution that I work at. And it's it's that highly transferable nature of a highly collaborative environment. Like if you're working in a high functioning, high collaborative environment, you're gonna take things with you that you can use in other areas, or if you pivot like I did.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, it's actually something they told me in the interview process. You're gonna be able to excel in a department like this anywhere else in the country if you after working here. And that I think that's true. Um one thing about the um kind aspect of that environment, feisty, but kind, you know, good people. They were good, good people. My direct supervisor at the time, so they were kind of into personality tests, which I want to ask you a little bit about too. And we did a lot of them. And the Myers Briggs, which is the four letters. Um, my direct supervisor and I had no letter in common, not one. We had the opposite letter from each other in each of the areas. And yet you wouldn't I you you couldn't have told been able to tell that from the outside, the way she supported me, the way she um appreciated me. It just, I just I'm like, this doesn't make sense. We should clash, we should rub each other wrong with those letters being opposite in every way, but it's not the way it happened because of the way we treated each other, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

I happen to believe and it doesn't reflect the beliefs of anybody else. So I don't want to put words in anybody else's mouth that um when so you think about the top leaders of that department, right? People who have moved on. Um I always felt like when I was working on those teams that there was enough work to go around and there was enough success to go around. And I think that, you know, when when people on the team had success, people were legitimately and genuinely happy for them. If you secured the grant, you got the shout out. If you got this thing done, you got the shout out. I mean, you got credit for the work that you did. And I felt like that their work was super competitive, but all of that competition was driven towards the external product. And within the team, I always felt like as long as there's enough work and enough success to go around, kind of you want those people who are opposite you on the uh uh, you know, on the Myers Briggs, because they're gonna approach the problems differently. They're going to, um one of my colleagues that I worked with the most because of the nature of our roles, we had absolutely nothing in common about how we would approach a problem other than we knew we were gonna approach it together, right? And it's kind of like if I'm approaching it from this side and they were approaching it from the other side, it couldn't get away from us, right? We we knew that we were gonna be able to solve whatever the like Velociraptors. Basically, grants compliance, Velociraptors. But just finding those solutions. And like I said, I think the when there's an when you're on a high functioning team and there's enough work and success to go around, it you don't find yourself in as much conflict.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, that's a good point. Do you so as I so as I said, we did we did Myers Briggs there, we we had this document where we all said our Myers Briggs. And our preferences, like, do you prefer phone I am or text and just person here's my personality to help you know how to work with me? How did you so for me that was my jam? Like I had it I'd kind of discovered personality tests a couple years before that. And I was really kind of they helped me not just find myself, which isn't to me the goal, but leverage my strengths, fight my weaknesses, or um, you know, learn how to adapt. Also, like one of one of my since I'm an ENFP, it's the campaigner, it's the whoa person in the room kind of. And one of the things I remember it teaching me is be sure to, you know, I don't know how it said it, but shut up now and then to to bring bring forth, you know, the other people in the room and what they what they have to say. So I loved that stuff about them. Do you did you have any, do you have any feelings about personality tests in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And uh so I participated, obviously, and I was an INFJ. And I'm like, hmm, okay, that tracks. I think that you know, there had been a couple people who were surprised to learn that I was an introvert. And I'm like, well, I only actually extrovert for money. So um I'm happiest at home on my couch with my books. So, you know, there's that.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Um, but that's gonna be the maybe I'll make that the title this episode. I only extrovert for money. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Um, I when I was completing my manual, like, you know, because we did the user manual based on a I prefer this, I like that, or whatever. Um, I didn't feel as strongly about mine because when I was filling it out, I'm like, I mean, I guess I prefer an email to a phone call, but I'm also a grown person. So just do what you got to do in the moment. Same. Like I didn't feel like people were mishandling me or anything like that. I mean, I took the time to read everyone else's and I would try to have that in my mind. Um, but you know, also work is an exchange transaction and we're there to do a job. And so, you know, if I'm being polite and doing the best I can to follow your preferences, that should be good enough. And it all I felt like it always was. So that's always good. But when I filled mine out, I was kind of like, I mean, I like what we do. I like our work. You get a hold of me however you need to.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Right. I'm so with you. Sometimes I even have trouble taking those tests because of the difference between nature and nurture. I'll be like, well, I don't know what I prefer, but I am to be a good citizen of the world, you can freaking call me or I am me, and I will answer. Yeah. It's right, right. So I know what you mean. I know what you mean there.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

But I think they are really helpful in um how do I want to say this? Um, if your personality is INFJ, that means that you're an INFJ everywhere, right? You're an IFJ at home, you're an INFJ at work, you're so I felt like they were helpful, not necessarily in communicating with other people or maybe managing my work style, you know, like I need to work on this or I'm good at that or whatever. I didn't feel that way about it as much as I felt like um it was good for helping me to manage my expectations and my energy more along that line. Like, okay, well, the reason why that's rubbing you the wrong way is because of who you are as a person and not them, you know, kind of thing. And and just using it that way to really temper myself, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Okay, so let's get to the transition because we've really we've only talked about the good, you know, it was a great place to work, and it was it suited you well because of the um compliance uh niche. So what happened? When was the first glimmer that maybe it was gonna be time to go?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I found something that I liked more, right? So being able to be a member of that um, you know, the university's kind of investigation team and things like that, I I really liked it. It still had such a huge compliance element to it, right? All I'm trying to decide is is there a policy violation? How do we support people, you know, things like that. So it was very um still very compliance focused. And um, so finding that and liking it and having the support of that existing team to be able to do those things when the university called on me. Um, I'm like, I I think I want to do that. And I was pretty open about it. I said, hey, I'm enjoying this more. Like I enjoyed it so much more that when I was assigned um to work on that role, like, you know, the university would have need and you would get assigned to a role. Um my other work got easier. Oh, wow. So I found myself being more efficient over here and, you know, able to respond better and maybe even in some ways quicker, because this other work I liked that much more. So that was kind of an eye-opening moment where I'm like, um, yeah, this is gonna be busy. It's gonna be hard because I'm filling this other, you know, HR-based role, or it's not necessarily HR-based. We have, you know, people on this team across the university. Um, but my other work got easier. And so that was kind of the first, like, oh, you're kind of a better person when you're, you know, you enjoy your work life more or whatever. So that is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

I love that story. It's there's a book called Designing Your Work Life. And they talk about, do they call it redesign that when you're which you weren't unhappy, but you know, if things don't feel quite right at work, there are so many ways that you can adjust it that might not mean leaving. And one of them is to get involved in different committees or something else at work where you might discover something you like a little better that's still supporting the same organization, you know, but it's in a different way using different strengths. That's a really cool, that's a really cool part of that story. Um, you found something you liked more. I love that. Oh, did um let's see.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Now work is work. It's not all puppies and kittens and rainbows. There, you know, there were things, there were things that happened that weren't huge things. They weren't, you know, big blow-ups at work or anything like that. But there were times when something would happen and I would feel my reaction. And I hope that I didn't react too much, you know, in a professional setting, but I would say, I might not be the best person to keep doing this role, right? Because there were- So that was the old job that you're talking about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where I was just like, I mean You were reacting too strongly, maybe. Yeah, I reacted in ways that didn't seem to align with how I had typically felt about my work. And so I tried to be really honest about those things and say to my direct supervisor, I think we need to start thinking about how we plan a transition. And, you know, I think I'm wanting to do something else. And, you know, I was really open with those things, as was she. She was really supportive. And what does that look like? And how long can we have? And what do we want to do? So when the ultimate decision, when I made the ultimate decision, I'm like, you know what? I don't want to do this work anymore. And it's not fair to camp out in this role that other people would want and would be good at and would be, you know what I mean? Like I felt strongly about that. We had such good people on that team that it didn't feel right to camp out in a role that I didn't want when I was fully equipped to go find a different role that I did want.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

And so Okay, let me let's talk about that that feeling where you were kind of over overreacting or reacting differently than you used to. That kind of sounds like classic burnout, like a symptom of burnout. But I'm wondering if it was, it's really interesting that you said finding this work that you liked more actually made you like this work too better, because it made you more efficient more. But then do you think there came a point where the the tension was pulling you away? Because is that what that I don't know?

SPEAKER_00 30:28

It's it's hard to say if that was a result of the work because I happen to believe, and I think I had said this to you once before, that wherever you go, there you are, right? Yes, you did say that to me, Carrie Gaines. So, you know, I really worked hard on myself when I kind of realized there's this other thing I want to do. I don't feel as good at this work anymore. I feel like, you know, there there's something else that I want more. And um, so I started working on myself. Like, what would a different work life look like? What would decentering your career look like? What would all of those things look like and feel like? And how do you start doing them today so that you don't take whatever it is that you don't want to take with you into your next role or your next opportunity or, you know, whatever. I think a lot of times people work on, they think that maybe work is broken. But if they pause and look at their reactions to work, it's the same reaction that they have in their home life. It's the same reaction that they have in their, you know what I mean? And but somehow these reactions are experiences that you're having at work are work's fault, even though you're experiencing them everywhere else in your life. At least that was the realization for me. I think That's really good. I didn't feel like work was broken. I didn't feel like I was broken either. But I'm like, you know what? I might be, you know, the common denominator in this, you know, these feelings that I have.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

I have to ask at this point, but it's off track. So we got to come back to this uh section. But um have you ever been in work that you felt was broken, that the work was broken, the environment, you know, the whole quote unquote toxic work environment situation? Do you even believe in that?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

I don't know. I don't know if I have. And I mean, certainly in every work role, there are days where the work is toxic, right? I mean, I think about some of the things that we handle in our jobs, or even that we handled within the sponsored programs department where we had tremendous amount of conflict that was generated outside of our department, but because of the nature of our role, we had to handle it, right? So I I think that sometimes in my experiences, um, toxic work environments have been more situational, not necessarily the whole job and everything else is broken. But I also don't feel like work owes me anything other than a paycheck. Nothing but a paycheck. It's an exchange transaction. Yeah. But you wouldn't do anything for money. No, I wouldn't do anything for money, but that's my choice.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah. Interesting. That's the kind of stuff we have to we have to talk about more.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

I'm like it was half-hearted joking, but also a little bit not. Earlier this week in my current role, somebody was talking about something and they were, you know, they had been working through some pivot tables, and I'm like, if I have to work on a pivot table this week, I quit. Like, uh just tell me now and I'll get my stuff gathered up. And, you know, ha ha ha ha ha ha. But I mean, I'm not opposed to to learning more and doing better with pivot tables. I, you know, when I had left my previous role, I'm like, I'm never gonna work in Excel again. And now I work in a dynamic Excel model that requires, you know, two screens and uh, you know, all of this kind of stuff. And it's fantastic because it's work worth doing. But we all have a choice to make. Am I willing to do this in exchange for the amount of money they're gonna pay me to do it?

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, Carrie, I was in a I was in an Excel document yesterday where it said to me, Do you want to make this a table? And I was like, it is a table. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 34:16

First of all, stop talking to me like that. Second of all, yeah, yeah, Excel. I mean, and I work with an XL wizard, so I learn a lot. And I worked with an Excel wizard before, so you know it's a good tool and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

But it Who was our XL wizard initials? Me, MJ. Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah, yeah. Um toxic work environments. What am I what was the question burning in my head? Oh, so do you just call total BS on um people wanting better PTO? I I need better work-life balance. I need you to tell me I don't have to check my email at 5 p.m. What people would call work culture improvements.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

I mean, do you just say well I think there are roles that have those things. There are roles? Yeah, I think there are jobs that have the PTO you're looking for or have the work cultures that you're looking for. I think that you can go and get those jobs, but not every I I think that I think that, and again, this is my opinion and re does not reflect the opinion of anyone else in the world. So let that let the record stay in the air. I just, I don't think work owes us that much. I don't Or anything except a paycheck. I think it owes us a paycheck. I think it I think we have the right to be safe. I think we have the right to, you know, work in a non-harassing and non-discriminatory environment and things like that. But at the end of the day, um a current leader, you know, says it's a job, not a life sentence. I mean, if you don't, if this isn't your jam, that's okay. Nobody expects for it to be. So, but I would challenge people. I d first of all, let me say this. I think that there are truly toxic work environments. Okay. I I believe that. I think that there are, you know, tyrants among us, right? No matter where you're at or whatever. And those people are tough to deal with. But when you say, you know, no emails after five, who or whatever that that culture is. I'm I'm not sure how many people are going around saying we expect you to be tethered to this thing, right? But we sometimes internalize those things. Maybe we're reformed people pleasers. And we can tell that if we're non-reformed, trying to be reformed. Um, you know, I think that sometimes we look at that and say, they expect me, right? It's not unspoken, it's not a part of my work contract or whatever, but I feel like they expect me to be available to them. And how disappointing would it be if I wasn't. And so we're trying really hard not to disappoint these people who have never spoken that you need to be available after a certain you know what I mean? But we've inferred these expectations a lot of times because of who we are. So I don't know. I think that my opinion is that a lot of times the things that we experience as burnout or toxic work culture or whatever, we experience in every other aspect of our life. But for some reason, we expect work to be the place that it isn't that way. We expect work to be the place where we're not a people pleaser, right? I'm in control of my own time, right? So sometimes I, you know. And again, I'm not talking about abusive work situations or anything like that. But I'm just talking about the general work should be better. Why should it be better? Who should it be better for? And who should it be better for? Because if it's better for you, it might not be better for me.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah. Tell me if this rings true. It feels like kind of what you're saying. Um a couple jobs ago I I was talking to to a friend who at work who was saying, you know, um the boss said said this to the person or demanded this of the person. That's not fair. They can't do that. And it it's like it clicked for me that I I actually I don't have a strong sense of justice, quote unquote. Because I was thinking, sure he can, but the he's the boss. He can say and do whatever he wants. Yeah. And the point is just, are you going to allow now? It's on you to react. Do you allow it? Do you stay and let him be the boss in that way that he wants to be the boss, or do you not? It was, it's just a it's just we all have our choices. What you're doing. I believe that you do that.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

I believe we all have our choices. I think that that is a very accurate way to summarize it. Okay. Um, and I don't have a strong sense of justice for myself. Like I don't feel terribly wronged walking through life or walking through my work day or whatever. Do feel a strong sense of justice for other people. I do I do maybe get a little ired or irked or my ire up when I feel like somebody else is being wronged. But for myself, I'm like, eh, I'll do it or I won't, or you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

So oh, we're gonna have to get to your current job with that related to that uh justice thing. Because we haven't really described your new job yet. But I want to ask a couple other questions about leaving. You we talked about this sort of in our pre-interview chat that we had. Um you said something about how the old workplace that you've left now did not let's see if I say this right to completely fix me if I don't. It didn't demand overwork, but it was really conducive to it. You said something like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, yeah. I think so. I think, well, first of all, I think you said um you had indicated before that you felt like you were reaching while you were there, right? So I think a lot of times people, especially people who were maybe teachers' pets, high achieving in school, things like that. And those types of environments where everyone around you is really, really good at what they do too, it's that whole, you know, what is it, iron sharpens iron or whatever it is that they say or whatever. And so um it didn't demand it. There wasn't somebody going, well, we expect you to do this and that and this and that. But I think if you if you're a people pleaser, you don't want to let these people down who you know are working just as hard as you are, right? Harder. So mine were working harder than me. And some flows, you know, that kind of thing. So I think that I never felt pressure to overperform by any of my leaders, but I certainly didn't want to disappoint anyone either, right? And that's a self-thing. That's not a yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of a little bit bizarre that we kind of want to hold leaders accountable for how we feel about the work that we deliver to them. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. I do. I think about some of my past leaders. If they knew that I had been overworking or maybe overperforming to please them, they'd been like, you should go home now, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

So and is that is that one of the things when you say you kind of began to work on yourself and imagine this different decentering. Oh God, that was such a great phrase. Decentering.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

I I think that that's what all of the life coaches talk about now. So don't I probably learned it off of everything stolen.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Everything's still crediting. Decentering work life. So would you say, that's so that's really interesting. You felt you needed to decenter work life and you could you were trying to imagine that and thought it might be easier to do in this different role. No, I didn't think it was gonna be easier.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

I wanted it done before I went to a different role.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Okay, that's a good thing. Beautiful. Because of what I needed and what I wanted moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Okay. I have to get to more questions about that. Um, the because I've I've got like you, you I've got you segmented out here with backstory today and then philosophy, because you say so many things that are really like philosophical, and I want to get to those, um, some of those. But um, I want to ask one more question about leaving. As you've said, this was such high caliber people leadership track. So the the person who was heading that department when I started, such a lovely person, one of the most professional, kindest people, GS. Um, she when I met her um the first you know day on the job or whatever, somehow she discovered I liked Anim Green Gables and she said, I love Danem Green Gables. And I'm like, what now? It was just so surprising to see that in someone so professional and kind of so high up in that. She is now the freaking president, yes, of the Missouri campus for this entire medical school. That's the track that these people are on, sort of. I mean, that it's it can go to that, and you were there, you were on that track. Did you feel any kind of judgment externally or uh internally? Any kind of about leaving that.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I think definitely internally. Um, you know, before I, you know, my title was director and I managed people and I managed processes. And um, I my work intersected heavily with other service departments at the university. I worked with tons of really great people. Um but you know, it's like any other change that we make. And how many times in our life do we think, what's what's everybody else gonna say when I'm like, yeah, I'm looking for an individual contributor role where where I Do my work. Yeah. You know, and um, but what I found, I think, uh, since I've been in my new role for a few years now, is that you have just as many opportunities to be impactful, to be supportive, to help take care of people, all of the things that you associate with being in a leadership role, or at least that I associated with being in a leadership role, um, most of those opportunities, most of those things that I found gratifying are still available to me. And I didn't want to do that work anymore. And there were people who did. So sitting in that seat, just for the sake of saying that I sit in that seat didn't feel right.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Did you have any? We're gonna, this is the last question on this. I'm leaving. Once you left, you're there in that new thing. Did you have any surprising down moments where you did miss the title from before or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 44:59

No, I never miss the title. I miss the people. I miss the people all the time still. You know, um, they're really good, they're really great at what they do. Um, and so many of them keep moving into progressive leadership roles, you know, you know, so you get to see and cheer for these folks that you know are deserving. Um so no, I never I didn't miss the no.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

That's gotta be a big part of the internal work you do because uh I've heard it, I've heard several stories now with different people. And often what you think is gonna happen, what you think you're gonna do, you are a little thrown because it you feel things you didn't expect to feel. So it sounds like you were pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

I will say that when I've seen other friends and colleagues advancing and and moving up, and I'm like, I could do something like that. And then I'm like, you can. Now the question becomes is that something you really want to do? And then I'm come to my senses and I'm like, oh no, wait, never mind. What was I thinking for that whole four and a half seconds? So, you know, I think that there's still that tiny, maybe tiniest little bit, but then when I reconcile it against um the life that I have and the role that I have and the opportunities that are still available to me, I'm like, no, no, I'm I'm good here. And I feel good about that.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

So one of my little quotes that I flip to occasionally and sometimes I'll keep it for a long time is you are choosing this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. It's just no matter where I am, I'm choosing it. I am choosing it because we have so many choices. We have choices. We okay in our household and call it these are the problems we chose to have. Oh, this is the life we chose. That's what I say when I sweep up dog hair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Beyond dog hair on my dark wood floor. It's like, hold on. These are the exact problems that I signed up for. And I wouldn't trade the other half to avoid this. So we're gonna have to deal. So we say that a lot around here.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Yeah, that's a good one. Okay. So you've kind of said compliance, you've said investigation. Just sum it up. What is it that you do now, Carrie?

SPEAKER_00 47:14

So I am an HR specialist and I split my time between two distinct HR roles. One is compensation administration, and one is um like university investigations and compliance and things like that as it relates to a few specific policies. So and then any, you know, other duties as assigned. So which one has the spread spreadsheets?

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Compensation administration. Compensation. Compensation, what did you call it? Modules? What do you what's the thing that you do that yeah, the compensation model? Yeah, a model.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

So you actually figure out what a position is should be paid? Sure. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

So I spend a lot of time um reviewing the job description and um using our compensation model to determine what type of pay grade, what type of pay range. It's a, you know, it's it's a whole process, right? So the university has a really robust process for doing this. But essentially, um, you know, just making sure that we have positions leveled appropriately. Um, one of the things that I find myself doing that I didn't realize I would do from when I sat in the other seat was how much time and effort that team puts into trying to understand what it is that the supervisors are trying to communicate in a job description. Oh. Because, you know, what they're saying and what they're needing, there can be some gaps between that and getting together with those folks and helping, you know, that's part of my job that I really do enjoy is just saying, this is where I think it is, talk to me, or coming back and asking additional questions, if this, then this, or, you know, that type of thing, and making sure we get things as close to right as we can. On I try to do it on the first try, but sometimes we have to, you know, have a couple of back and forths. But it's it's really good work. And it's, you know, it's um, how do I say this? It's like part of the scaffolding that these teams are gonna have to work on. So I feel like it has to be really solid. So that's that's the meaningful work that I can do for them.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah. The the investigation side is what you were doing extracurricular, so to speak, right? Right. Did you know did that other part have to come with it? Were you like cool with the compensation model part two? Or you Yeah, I was good with all, yeah, all of it. Yeah, yeah. So tell us I want you to say the sentence I I heard you say at lunch that day that I just love so much about what you like about this job. If you can Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

I I feel this way about all of I think I know what you're gonna say, is that I when I'm working um on behalf of the investigative arm of the university, and I don't do that full time, and um, they have a really great process for you know covering all of those things. Um, but I'm always comforted by the fact that no matter what I'm working on in HR, I'm not trying to determine if somebody is a good person or a bad person, only if there's a potential policy violation. And so it really helps me to just kind of lean back a little bit and just work through our policies and our procedures. What me working through policies and procedures, it's the best part of my, you know, my day. So um I like what we do for people. I like what it means that the university is so invested in their fair processes and procedures and all of that kind of thing. So I think it's it's really interesting, you know, what what people need from from their HR team and things like that and how we can give it to them in a way that's meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

So that is that is one of the sentences. The other one you haven't said yet, but I think I can get you there, which is so do you do you make a lot of decisions? Oh, I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Yeah. So um, and I'm not sure if I'll say exactly what you're expecting me to say, but my role now is as an individual contributor is to make sure that the decision makers have all the best, most accurate information that they need. And then I hand it to them.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yes, that's the sentence. Yeah. And and so I just love how you say that. You're like, here you go.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Yeah, here you go. So I think that one of uh the things that I like the most about my work is my, like I said, I take a lot of information and kind of boil it down and get it to just the facts. And I like that I'm good and quick at that. So the people who do need to make hard decisions, right? Yeah. There there are lots of decisions that are being made every day. And I like being able to put that information together in a way that they immediately know if they have more questions, right? They can pick that information up and say, Oh, I'm also gonna need this. Okay, great. Because I don't want anyone, if I've handed them something that they're gonna be using to make decisions or to communicate with somebody else, I don't want them to ever be second guessing themselves or flipping through pages or whatever. So I do like just here you go, decision makers.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Just the facts, yeah, the information that I have found. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so we've made this really clear that your compliance is your niche, really. The niche you found and and you like it, it really suits you. I can tell you that if you told me in high school um you you would like a job in compliance, I would not know where to begin. Like where would a person, what should a person do in college, for instance, if they have that same kind of bent?

SPEAKER_00 53:00

So I have a bachelor's of science in business administration and I have a master's in public health. Um, but I think the thing that compliance work lends itself to, or the skills or the interests that lend themselves to compliance work is can you synthesize a lot of information? Um, do you enjoy logic? So much of it is just so logical. If this, then that, right? Or don't pass go, or you know, that type of thing. And just um just being able to take in the information. I think, I think that what people miss a lot in compliance is that, and maybe this is a different way to say it, is um I want to be able to take the rules or the information or the policy and make it operational. I understand all of this to mean this based on this policy or this rule or this information or whatever, or this piece of compliance. And this is how we have two ways we can make it work here, right? We know it won't work 998 ways, but there's two ways that it will work. And that's the part of it I like figuring out is how to operationalize a solution based on compliance or policy. I just don't want anybody to ever get in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

So when I around the time I was preparing to leave, leave that department, you were you weren't talking about leaving at that time, but you were talking about policy a lot. You were sh having had a lot of interest in you actually thought you might want to write policy. Do you still have that interest? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

And I do. I get to work on some of the HR-related policy from time to time and you know, at the assignments as they're made to me, that type of thing. So, and I like reconciling guidance with our policies. I mean, I, you know, uh you find the gaps and you figure out how to how you're gonna make fill those gaps in a way that's relevant to your institution. Because at least from my experience in my previous role, there were no um rewards or extra points for being overcompliant, right? That's just where you create more administrative burden and all of that kind of stuff. So kind of figuring out where that line is that serves the purpose, protects the institution, but still is can be operationalized. It's the lamest topic ever, but I I really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

I know it's qualified, but I do love that you love your job, that you like your job. Um okay, let f I'm getting to philosophy now because I want to hear you talk about this. Um, because that was so poignant the way you said, oh no, I wanted it done. I wanted that internal work where I decentralized work done before I went to the next thing. So you place high value on internal work over external changes. Yes. And that is what the conversation we had. I was, I had a new, I had a new planner in that I'd gotten in the mail. I had gotten the same design for years and I had a brand new design this year. And you said, what made you do that? And I said, Because I want to change everything. And you said, Yeah, but you know, when you change everything, you're still there. That's when you said that to me, and it was so true. But also, I have found in my own life, I mean, internal work is all you got. You can't change anyone change. Yeah, you can't change anyone else. You can't change systems very easily or at all. Um, so internal work is all you got. I I I internal internal work constantly at work. Um, but I still find that sometimes external choices help aid the the internal choices I'm trying to make. But it I'm not sure that you think at all that you need those external. And yet you did. You made a a change.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Yeah, I did. Um, what would you say? So, first of all, I'm one magic notebook away from completely running this world. So I totally understand the planner vibe. I mean, I am like I love getting a new one. I've done all of them, bullet journals, everything else. But I think that I think that environment matters, obviously. Doing what you enjoy matters, obviously. But I don't think it matters as much as how you manage your reactions to your environment or to the people around you or whatever the case may be. Because you it will always be that way. You will never have control over the people around you. Like you said, systems. I mean, you gotta buy houses, you gotta pay rent, you gotta do all of these things. Um, but how you manage your reactions to it. Now, I do believe that we can make, you know, make our environments easier, you know, to do the things that we want to do. But I do think that we still have responsibility for managing that environment. I don't believe that I mean, I sound like I'm in HR or something, but I just don't believe that that um I I believe that work needs to be safe. I think it needs to be secure. I think that people need to be compensated fairly for the jobs that they do, all of those things. But I just don't think that hacking the work environment is going to make as many people happy as they think it will. I kind of have this idea that we have a tendency to focus on things that are external of us in order to be happy or to achieve what we want to achieve or whatever. We're like, well, if they would do this, uh, you know, it would these types of things. And I you see it play out all the time. Anything but address your responsibility in the role or claim your power in the situation or whatever the case may be. So I think that there's less um, I think we all have less control over the external hacking of anything than we do our own selves. So our own selves. Yeah. That's where all of the power and control is. It's not gonna be, I mean, we've raised kids. You can't make anybody do anything. We know this. Oh, that's true. If you can't make the people who live with you act the way they should, why do you think you're gonna be able to make the people that you work with act the way you know? I mean, I just I think that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

Yeah. But then I think I'm quicker than you to say since I can't change them and I've done everything I can to change myself, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna try a different place and see if it there is better chemistry. And it sounds like you're gonna you would be real slow to ever think that an external switch is gonna fix anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

I don't think it will I mean I think it will fix some things, I just don't think it'll fix the things that matter the most to me. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Well that's a what um I was gonna ask the typical question that I ask everyone. I'm hoping it leads to something you said to me. Like if I asked you what is something about your work that matters, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Well, I don't remember what I said to you, uh, to be honest, but I know that what matters to me is that um that I do work that's worth doing. I mean, I really do believe in the university's mission. I believe in its vision. I think that people a lot of people are working really hard towards that, and that we, if you choose to be, you know, an employee there and stay there, that we all have a role that we can play. And so I I just like that the work that I do supports the people who are doing other things that are important. It's like the the brick work, just brick by brick. You know, if if people will do their part and their role, um, I think the people are great. I what did I say before? Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Well, do you what if so what you said is something about people deriving meaning from their work.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

What did you say? What did you tell me about that? Yeah, yeah. Because I just thought that was really smart. I feel like so often that people feel like work is going to give them meaning, right? Or that their work, or they need it to, or that the work itself is going to be meaningful. And I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there's nothing inherently meaningful about an Excel model that I work in. Right. But recognizing that the work that I'm going to do is going to impact other people and that I have an opportunity to try to do the best, put the best foot forward to not be tired or anxious or lazy in those job descriptions. You know, I I treat all of them exactly the same. I mean, I have got stacks of paper. I mean, I'm trying to figure it out and I'm asking questions because it means something to me, and that's good enough, right? So um at the end of the day, I've done the best that I can, and that it means something to me. So you I feel like you have to bring the meaning to the work. Bring the meaning. Oh, that's good. Because we're good selling, I mean, a lot of the things that we do or the tasks that we do don't. There's just nothing inherently meaningful about numbers unless you make them that way. Does that make sense? You have to absolutely you you bring the meaning to the work.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

You bring the meaning. I just really love that phrase. Maybe that will be your title. So many, so many ideas here here. Um, so in one of my earlier episodes, I talked about this time management expert person, uh, Laura Vanderkamp. She has tons of kids, jobs, blah, blah, blah. And she writes about time management. And she specifically did the math and showed me, not personally, that we actually do have more waking hours in the week that are not work than we do work. And I flat out didn't believe her and did the math myself because I didn't believe her. I'm like, no, we don't. I work my whole life. I work most of my life. It's all of my life. Um, and my and I did the math and she was right. And so then I'm like, okay, why am I not feeling it? How do you feel it? Because I know that you do. You life is bigger to you than work.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

Yeah, yeah. So, first of all, like I said, I feel like my work is meaningful. So that is helpful, right? I bring the meaning to the work, I enjoy it. I don't, uh, I don't dread it. I mean, there are times where I'm like, oh, I can't believe I put that off and now it's waiting for me, right? But that's a me problem. That's a choice that I made. Sadly, here I am, you know, that kind of thing. Um, look, look, it's the consequences of my actions, you know, kind of thing. But I really spend a lot of time on my hobbies. I like to read, we bought a sailboat, we go skiing, we go scuba diving, we do things. I think that the things that you do outside of work are just as important as the things that you do in work. I think that they feed each other. I mean, obviously, I'm engaging in an exchange transaction with my employer so I can have the money to go do the things that are my life. And I think that stuff restores me and makes me, you know, and even better at my work. Um, I know some people talk about, you know, the Sunday night blues or the Sunday. I don't, I mean, uh all the time I'm like, oh, I wish every weekend was a three-day weekend, but not because I'm dreading going back to work, but because I enjoy what I'm doing away from work. And I think that those are two entirely different things. And you can't focus if you find your work to be dreaming, then why are you focusing on it all the time? You know what I mean? Like, why wouldn't you disengage from that and get your brain right before you go back?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Do you what do you think of the word car compartmentalize? Do you car compartmentalize your work self and your personal self, or does it feel pretty fluid? Feels pretty fluid for me most of the time. I that's what I'm hearing from you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

Yeah. I mean, I don't um I don't dread it. I don't, you know, I mean, obviously there are things ever nobody there's some things that nobody likes to do about their job or whatever. And there are definitely days when it's like it should be a crime to go to work when the weather's like this, you know, kind of thing. Um but I do feel that it's pretty fluid. For me.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Yeah, I think that's I I feel like I have a problem in this area. I feel like I bring the same me um to but my worlds feel so different. Like when I get to work and they say how was your weekend? I don't even want to tell them because I'm like, that's my like you don't care. That's not my that's not what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

I would like to have a more cheering environment that I work in. Also, I'm not telling them anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

I guess I guess. I I yeah, I just I feel and one time I remember um in in a workplace that felt very restrictive and very, very professional, but yeah. And someone started talking about a TV show like that everyone was watching, and I was just like thrown. Like, I don't know how this conversation doesn't make sense in this room. It was very it's like you're pretending, you're pretending to have a personal life because you really know that's what it felt like. It was so strange. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

I don't think you have to take your whole self to work. I don't I mean Okay. Okay. Helpful. Yeah, but I I do think, I mean, not everyone needs to know everything that's going on in your life at all times. Now, um I'm probably complaining about everything in my personal life to everyone, but um, not that I have a lot to complain about. But you know, it's um, I don't think you have to take your whole self to work. But I do think you need to take, I mean, I and maybe it's, you know, being, you know, old school or whatever, but you do need to be on your best behavior. Totally. You need to be kind to people. You know, if somebody says hello to you, you should say hello back. You know, I had a colleague today who could see that I was head down and, you know, I was there early and I was working through some things that that I obligations that I needed to meet, and knocked on the door and said, Can I get you a cup of coffee? And I said, I would love a cup of coffee, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:05

They didn't need to That means the universe paying it for it, Kerry Gaines, because you brought me coffee more than once.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

Well, it's just one of those things where it's like you I don't think you have to take everything about yourself to work to still reap the benefits of having good connections at work or to be a good conductor at work.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Yeah. And I like, I really love what you said about when you found that the investigative committee is what I'm gonna call it, and you were really enjoying that, that you also enjoyed your work more. I feel like that's what I've been trying to do more in the last several years in my life. If this is not clear to all of my listeners, and Carrie is very aware of it, I've really never had a good relationship with my job, pr pretty much never. Um, and part of it is because I always feel so pulled to this other stuff, this creative writing, blah, blah, blah stuff. And I wanted it to be the whole me. And so it was, I was very kind of um resistant to having to give me to these other the thing that gave me a paycheck. Where am I going with this? Oh, so what I'm trying to do lately is what you're saying, focus on those things I love. Put my energy in that, like this podcast is so fun for me. I get to talk about the things I wanted to talk to you about all the time anyway. And um, and so and I I'm hoping and I'm kind of feeling that it should do what that investigative committee did for you, that it really will make me kind of a better person in this other side too, because I'm getting, I'm focusing on focusing on my strengths. And anyway, this that's the hope. Um, okay, be a good person, be a good citizen reminds me that I want to ask you what did you tell your kids or model for them about work? Um and did they follow it?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

They did not. Um so I think we told, I think we told our kids, number one, that, you know, um, we always we always told them, do your job, don't make people remind you to do your job, just, you know, be be proactive, do your do your stuff. And I think they saw, you know, people who had centered work a lot. I mean, John and I both worked a lot, and um, both of our kids were like, nah, not me. That's not. I don't want to be answering emails. I don't want to be doing those things. They were not interested in that, and they they don't do those things. So they um, you know, they chose different things than what we did, and they don't seem many worse for wear on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

So do you feel like they got your message about the internal work?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Oh, I don't know about that. That's that's, you know, I mean, I think they're both good people and they know what they want and they're okay with that. I think that, and maybe you've observed the same thing in your kids. I mean, kids were way less apologetic. They were, you know, they're kind of like, no, thank you. That's not for me. These are the things that I want to do or or whatever. I think, and maybe this is just the mom and me. I think they have a little less of the people-pleasing uh gene than I did. I think that they are more their own people, which is ultimately what you would want for people, you know. And I think that they do view work as an exchange transaction more than I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:15

But you do believe that it is one, so right? Yeah, yeah. So, so you uh you are a people pleaser. So have you not hit that midlife thing that I feel in my face all the time of am I living the life I want, or did I get here because I was people pleasing all the way? You do have you never have you not really hit that even with work or anything? Um I don't know. I don't I don't think so. I mean, I know that. That your choices were your own. You you really feel that you own your Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

Yeah. I do I do feel like I I'm I made my choices. And I I mean I would say that I made at least 85% of my choices with my eyes wide open.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

So Okay, I this is where I get to ask this question and see see where you want to take it, if anywhere. But I find you a deeply settled person. You're very thoughtful, intentional. You have a very intentional approach to life. You don't seem to have I told a colleague yesterday that I felt like I had rabies, so I'm not sure that I'm always Wow. See, okay. But what I was gonna say is where do you think, where does that come from? I think everything's natural to you. Did you work for it?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Is it a worldview? I think that I am a generally anxious person most of the time. But I do think that everything's also gonna be okay. Does that make sense? Like I'm gonna be a little nervous about it, but I know it's gonna work out in the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:45

Is that from life experience? Or you it's you've always had that?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

Um feeling that it's gonna work out more as I get older. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think that everything's gonna work out. I this has been a couple of years ago, and it was in my new role, and we were kind of fighting for our lives on a, I'm like, it's gonna be a great day. And they said, Do you believe that, or are you just saying that like an affirmation? And I said, We've not yet encountered anything that we couldn't handle, right? I mean, we've we've handled it. I mean, i if if the if the if the track record says, Yep, you've handled 98% of the problems that's come your way over the last three years, then we're probably gonna handle the like I think there's a high probability we're gonna come out the other side of this one and be okay too. It's might be uncomfortable for a little bit. I think that's Do you see, do you see internet why I like talking to this person? I think that it's just I I think that as I got older and more mature professionally, um, that I became increasingly comfortable with discomfort. Like, like I told my, like I told my colleague yesterday, I'm like, I feel like I have rabies and I'm just gonna go for a walk for a second to get my head cleared so I can get this this thing done. Like, I think this is what rabies feels like. Um later I upgraded it to, I'm like, I think the rabies have passed and I've got the heebie chibies, so I think we're we're working through it, you know, or whatever. But just just knowing that, gosh, some days are just hard. And that's just it's it's that way for everyone. Like we so many times we think we're experiencing something really special and unique to us, this this anxiety or this problem or this workload or this whatever. And the truth of the matter is is that everyone else is too. You just might be complaining about it more today or whatever, or it's hitting you different. But I just I really feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

That's cool. We've made it through before, we'll make it through again. Love it. Okay, let's wrap up with it worked for me. This is where I want you to give us something big or small. It worked for you once, like an aha moment, or it regularly works for you to find or feel more meaning in life. I think about that for just one second.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:23

I think just just recognizing that it's going to be okay. Whatever the problem is, we've we've been most of the time, most of the problems we have, and I think it's true the lesson will be repeated until it's learned, but most problems that we see aren't new. But we treat them like they are, right? We treat them like they are. We get anxious or we get upset or we get worried or whatever. And most of the problems that we encounter in life or that we encounter at work, they're not new problems. They're certainly not new to the rest of the world, but they feel awful new and we treat them like we've never seen this problem before. When the reality is is we had the exact same problem two weeks ago. So, how did we answer it then? What do we need to change this time? So I think just maybe just recognizing that most of the time we've done this before and we've we've always been okay. Everything's gonna be fine, you know, kind of thing. So it works for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:22

It works for me. That's what I'm saying. That's what I wanted. Perfect. Um, I can't thank you enough for being on my podcast, especially when you said no so quickly the first time I asked. I knew you didn't mean it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

I have always enjoyed talking to you, and I'm super excited that you're moving forward with this. I think that, you know, as I listen to your other podcast episodes and as people listen, you know, just to everyone else in general, I think we're seeing that there's more in common than there isn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:54

And I think I think that's always comforting is that we all really have more in common than we think we do. So maybe we could just act like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

Oh, brilliant. I so agree. I used to say as a writer, I was always kind of wondering what my voice was. They say, you know, every writer has a voice. It's kind of the leader voice, or the I'm in here with it, I'm in it with you, or I just got through it and now you can too. What was my voice? And um I feel like I was constantly searching for the common denominators. That's like my whole thing. I'm always wanting to find the human common denominators. We can all agree on this. And unfortunately, there's nothing really that we all perfectly agree on. Um, but I I love to find the things that in general were the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:45

I think everyone's experiences are more closely aligned than not. Yeah. Whether whether we realize it or not. You know, most of us are experiencing the same things, especially with people who are in the same stage of life. But I think a lot of discontent comes from thinking, and I hate to say it like this, um, we think we're special. We think our suffering is unique, or we think that our situation, you know, woe is me. Look at this work life that I have. And everyone around you is like, oh, hey, I have the same one.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:14

You know, yeah. I did, I did used to like I'd drive to be driving the kids to school, just looking in the other cars, like, do the other parents look as upset about this day as me? Like, are they stressing about work like I am? Or is everyone just fine? Like, let's just go. Let's just go to work. It's fine. I think you should keep, I think you if you keep listening to my podcast, I was just assuming that you would, but let's say you do. You should keep a list of things I say that you're like, uh no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:45

I have another I have an objection to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:49

Keep a list so I can have you back and we can talk about more things than where we see it just like a little different, but then we'll find the the sameness too.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:56

You should do a group podcast at some point where people who have the exact opposite philosophies get to debate each other with you as the moderator. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

I actually, yeah, I'm wondering so far. I no one has said anything that I'm just like wild, like wildly disagreed with or something. I'm wondering what how a podcast moderator handles that if that happens. Oh, interesting. Let's move on. No, no more. I was hoping I was hoping to get to practice that with you more, but you're you're far too easy to converse with, Carrie. I really appreciate you. Thank you for being here, and I really do hope that you'll come back. Thank you.