I Do This for a Living

When Knowing Yourself Means Quitting the Dream Job with Charity Long

• Serenity Bohon • Season 1 • Episode 8

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0:00 | 1:14:02

It's another sister episode! Today, Serenity chats with her younger sister, Charity, "a singer and a mom." Charity had her dream job, a paid worship pastor at her church. She has a lot of insight about what it really means to have a job in ministry/nonprofit. When her leaders took the team through the Working Genius framework to discover their work personalities, Charity realized why the administrative parts of being an on-staff worship paster had been so challenging for her. There came a point when she determined the right move would be letting go of the job that looked so perfect for her on paper. This is her story! Charity also talks about homeschooling, creative dreams, and making a big family adventure possible.

Chapters

2:56 I want to be a singer and a mom

7:36 First jobs

9:19 From volunteering to a staff position in ministry

12:33 How ministry/nonprofit is unique from other jobs

20:01 Artist questions - is there more I could do, did I miss my break?

23:17 Quitting the dream job

30:16 Leveraging cosmic insignificance in decision-making

39:20 The Working Genius framework and realizing you’re in the wrong job

48:09 The difficulty of untangling your identity from your title

1:00:03 What it takes to homeschool

1:07:45 Taking the whole fam to Costa Rica for 10 weeks!

1:12:02 It Worked for Me


Links

Charity on Apple Music

Charity in her role as worship leader

Parenting is for Losers 

Working Genius


Charity and her husband, Ryan, sing an original song about NOT telling their younger selves how great it’s going to be: Don’t Tell Them Anything


Also discussed: 

Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown 

Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman 


I Do This For a Living is independently produced. 

@serenitylive

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to I Do This For a Living, a show that questions everything about work culture and asks how we can spend as much time and energy on the things that matter as we do on the things that pay. Sometimes the things that matter pay, and we'll talk about that too. I'm your host, Serenity Bohan. I started this podcast so I could have work I love. Today's guest is Charity Long. She is my sister. So she lived with me when we were kids, and she has lived with me when we were grown-ups. I invited her to the show because I am leaning into the fun of having these conversations with the people I know best. Okay. You know, some people know, I have always said I'm easily starstruck. It's sort of my thing to be in awe of famous people, especially if they're famous for things I admire. But I always say I am starstruck by people I love too. And that is true here. I also invited Charity on the show because she has a work history that I find very interesting, very thoughtful, and perfect for this podcast. So we're gonna get to know Charity very well through this episode. So I'm skipping the whole making her say I'm Charity Long and blah, blah, blah bit. Uh, without further ado, everyone, this is my sister, Charity Long. Hello, everybody. Yay, thank you. We have um we may have the same trouble Felicity and I had, and people are gonna have trouble distinguishing our voices, but we'll just do the best we can.

SPEAKER_01

We will.

SPEAKER_02

I also have to tell you, I have a like flip chart thing on my desk that um I purchased from Amazon, so I can write my own little inspirational sayings to myself and choose which one I need in any given time. And right now it says, turn on mic, hit record. Because I realize it doesn't sound like an inspirational quote, but it's straight from you, Charity Long. Because when I was trying to decide to do this podcast, I was trying to build up the courage. I was trying to decide if I should do it. You were like, don't overthink it, hit record. And so that's you, actually. Also, it now also says plug in mic based on an error I made in an earlier episode. So plug in mic, turn on mic, hit record. I have done all. Okay. Good job.

SPEAKER_01

It's just so easy to tell someone else to take action on their creative dreams.

SPEAKER_02

That's true, I guess. Yeah. It's um, I just wrote an um article today that doing the thing feels a little bit the same as morning sickness. Like it's just it's nerve-wracking, and you just do it anyway, and then you're doing it before you decide that you can do it. That's what happened to me. Okay. Astronauts and rock stars. We're gonna we're just gonna go chronological, sort of, with you. And I want to talk about, as a kid, want you to talk about. What did you understand about work? What are your memories of that idea existing and or evolving?

SPEAKER_01

Right. I have this very early memory, which everybody in our family makes fun of me for, of being a little kid at home with mom. I was probably four, I suppose. And dad came home from work early, like he had taken the afternoon off or something, and I was super confused. And he was walking for some reason. I don't know why he was walking home, but he was walking down the street, and I yelled at him, What'd you do? Quit your job.

SPEAKER_02

I love that story.

SPEAKER_01

And now everyone makes fun of me. But um, so I remember dad had a job. I don't think I understood that it provided for us, that it was the money feeding us. It was just people have jobs, that's what they do. And then my other childhood memory is I remember being in the back of a car with Aunt Frankie for some reason. She was visiting. She, Aunt Frankie, is like our cool Aunt Frankie from Florida. She was always fun and exciting, right? And she asked me, Well, what do you want to be when you grow up, Charity? And I said, I want to be a singer and a mom. And her response was so like, a singer and a mom. Yes. I don't know what she said, but it was like, you can totally do that. That's oh my gosh. That's a thing that people do. She was just so like confident for me. And it was really sweet. Do you know kind of how old you were? I feel like I probably in my head I was like eight or nine-ish. Wow. Yeah. Little. So that's a pretty special memory I have. Because here I am. A singer and a mom.

SPEAKER_02

I know. I I love that memory. I love when we have somewhat ah, I love those defining moments. Yeah. And I did, and I really wondered how early you had an answer to that question. And it was what you are. So that was really the next question. And you answered both in one. Um did you ever have someone tell you what you should be? Ooh.

SPEAKER_01

I suppose a little bit. I suppose maybe not outright, but I I would think there are sort of, maybe especially for girls, there are cultural expectations, which was for me a little confusing because I did want to be a mother, and that's kind of something I'd I would have been happy only being a mother and not having outside work. Um, but I suppose there was a little bit of culture involved in that too, that I assumed I would be a mother.

SPEAKER_02

And for me it worked out, but didn't you have as as you started singing kind of more in public though, didn't you have people say this is this is your good you should do this?

SPEAKER_01

For sure. Like I remember the first time I sang a solo, I was like nine, and I really thought nothing of it because you guys sang all the time. You're my older sisters, you guys are six and seven years older than me. You sang all the time. I was around it a lot. I didn't think of it as a big deal. And I sang a solo, and I remember like the teachers and leaders coming up to me and being like, you know that you sound really good, right? Like, I think you're gonna be doing this forever. And I was kind of like, huh. I mean, what?

SPEAKER_02

You know, yeah. I didn't realize you didn't know what a big deal it was. Because of course, Felicity's, yeah, in my experience, we had been singing together a long time and often duet duetting and things. And um, when you started singing, we actually had people say to us, like, I mean, you're just gonna quit now, right? Charity's got this singing in the family check. Felicity probably didn't get that as much as me because she had a specific role for her singing with the leading worship. But um, okay. That was so good. Um, we're gonna talk about billable hours in a different way than I have with others. I kind of want you to give us like, I really don't want these episodes to feel like a job interview, but so try not to make this feel like a job interview. But I want I want you to like take us through your job journey. And one time I heard it this way that we actually should do this in job interviews. When see when people say, tell us about yourself, that what you can do is tell your work story kind of like, I did this, then I realized blah and did this, then I realized blah and did this. So maybe kind of tell it that way. Yeah, just your just sort of briefly take us through first job to current job.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I did um uh a Bible college experience after high school. So I suppose I kind of went post high school. I was kind of always thinking I would do something for church. But what is weird is that in our snare that we grew up in, those weren't like jobs necessarily. None of our worship leaders were on the staff, they were all volunteers. So um, I guess I never thought of it as a job, but I still probably just had no frame reference that people needed money. So I just pursued it anyway. Like, okay, I'll go to Bible college, I'll do the worship leader track. Obviously, I'm a singer, so that's what I'll do. But job-wise, what happened from there is I actually got daycare jobs and nanny jobs. Um, and then I got married, basically. Well, I I did daycare and nanny jobs while I was married, newly married. Um that's actually it.

SPEAKER_02

What was your so I know you I remember you worked in a monastery. That was what you would call daycare. Yeah, yeah. It was monastery daycare. Okay. Cool. So do you think there was a part of you drawn to that kid thing for the same reason you were drawn to be a mom?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I mean I think more than motherhood, I like kids. I like being with kids. Oh. I like teaching children. I don't love teaching adults necessarily, but I love spending the day with a five-year-old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's so cool. That's a good thing to know about yourself. Yeah, it is. And it's unique.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, not not everyone feels that way about five-year-olds.

SPEAKER_01

That's true.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so um, so daycare is a new Okay. Yeah. And then you got married.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You had kids. I had kids, and then Ryan and I, my husband Ryan does um music with me. So we were leading worship together, volunteering at our church. And then we switched and switched attendance to a different church. And when we switched to the different church, it was a much larger church. And we volunteered there. Um, and then sort of, I just kind of fell into a staff position there in a way. I volunteered to lead worship, and then it was like, hey, we're starting a new campus, kind of. I mean, it it's murky, but something like that. Um, started working kind of like a as a sta on a stipend, so you're like heavily volunteering with a little bit of money. Um, and then switched to an actual staff part-time staff position and did that for over a decade. Would you call that the dream job? It was it was definitely a dream job. I I do remember saying, man, it would be cool to be on staff here, like before I was. So, in that sense, definitely a dream job. Um and ministry is just so not what I think people expect, even people who go into it. So there's so many difficult things, I think, about being in ministry. Um, so you have to remind yourself that you're in the dream job you wanted, like most people, I suppose. Kind of like motherhood. Yeah, that's true.

unknown

That's true.

SPEAKER_02

Uh I wanna um you have really cool things to say about ministry and kind of how to um sustain your love for it when you're in it. And so I definitely want to get to that. Um, but I I want to just go back a little bit because I do think it's interesting your understanding of you knew you wanted to do it as a kid. It's like I'm going on that worship leader track, but you had no idea that it would ever pay you or that you would need to have something pay you. I have the exact same experience really. Growing up in the church we grew up in, I like to say we were um, we loved the stage.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We had we we did plays, we did music, we did people who wanted to write plays wrote plays. People wanted to be in them were in them. You know, doctors were on stage playing trumpet and ukulele. And so that it was a show, and it was a it was art constantly around us. And I also got just had this feeling like, yeah, that's gonna make a room for make room for me. I'm just gonna get to do what I love and what's artistic and creative my whole life. I didn't even think about that doctor playing ukulele is the ER manager day and night. I mean, yeah, I didn't even think about it. It was he's playing, he's playing ukulele in that, yeah. So it's it's it's interesting how kid what kids understand about work. And so it's cool that you ended up in a in a world that did have a way to pay you to do that. Okay, so let's talk about that ministry thing. Okay. You said you have um you said you you have a kind of advice for that time in your life and for other people in it or who want to be in it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think being in ministry is a really interesting kind of work. And I would assume that any working for any like nonprofit is probably a similar experience in the sense that what you're doing is really tied to like um what is it that you say about well, about your work mattering? Like sometimes sometimes the work sometimes the work that matters pays. Isn't that what you say in your Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Sometimes the yes, sometimes what matters pays. I also have talked about with Felicity how in in not in the nonprofit world and teaching and jobs like that, there's kind of a belief in the in work culture in in a negative way that um if the job brings you meaning, it doesn't really need to pay because the meaning is your reward, which can happen can happen. So yeah. That is a little tricky.

SPEAKER_01

So when so when you're in you're doing work that matters, um and that's wonderful, but then the kind of ministry and nonprofit work are like um it kind of I compare it kind of to parenting. It's really hard to see if what you're doing is doing anything because the work that you do, it's not like, oh, look, we made a million dollars this year instead of half a million. It's not like that. It's you're like, I think this, the people that we're serving grew spiritually a little bit. And that's so challenging to measure. How do you measure that? And so feeling successful in ministry can be really difficult. Um, knowing that you're meeting your goals is is odd because there's people on the other side of that that aren't that you are not in control of, obviously. Um so it can be really weird and hard, like is what I is, even though I'm in this dream job and everyone's like, yeah, it matters. You're you're a pastor. It's like you also ask yourself, does this matter? Because it doesn't feel like anything is changing. The same way that like as a mom or a parent of any kind, you can be like, I changed his diaper once and now I'm gonna change it again, and he doesn't care and he doesn't thank me. And clapping, and similar. Although, and then on the other hand, though, for me in my role, people were clapping, which is another thing that is challenging because I'm on a platform and I'm singing every Sunday, and afterwards people are like, You're so great, we're so thankful for you, we love you. That is something you gotta deal with as well when you're leading worship, and the point is to point people to Jesus, but you're getting a lot of attention for it. That's kind of a weird thing, too.

SPEAKER_02

But okay. Were these weirdnesses surprising to you? Like, oh yes, this I didn't think about how it would be hard to measure success.

SPEAKER_01

And I was surprised because I didn't think success mattered to me that much. Oh wow. But I think then because I'm just really chill and I don't have like I'm not a super ambitious person, but but to feel like there's no way to know if I'm doing good at this is My goodness.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you're reminding me of uh the book this book I just read, uh How to Build a Meaningful Life, I think, with Dave Evans and Bill Burnett. And they s they said something that just blew my mind that um sometimes when we're looking for meaning in life, we think that means one thing, impact. That's the only thing that brings meaning is do I have an impact? And it's not. They're saying that's just one little piece of the pie, and it's not even like the biggest piece.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so I wonder if there were other if you needed other pieces of the pie in your brain when you were doing the ministry. Like, okay, impact is just part of it, but what about this and this and this? I don't know what it might have been.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe have it fed you or something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because the thing about mattering and with you know, I'm leading worship for people every week, and they are lovely people, and like I feel so appreciated and loved by them. But sometimes they will I've had people, you know, come be like, oh my gosh, this weekend I went to a huge stadium and Carrie Job was there, and it was amazing, and she's just the best worship leader ever. And in my heart, I'm like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I do for you every single week. But yes, I'm really glad you had that life-altering experience with Carrie Job. And but in my heart, I know I'm like, what I'm doing for this person, the and and Carrie Job would agree with me, I think. The way I'm serving and taking care of this person is something that matters, and in the longevity of their life, is actually probably more impactful than the one night that they were deeply moved by Carrie Job's worship leading. And I, but you have to remind yourself of that. Like 52 weeks with someone, 52 times in worship with someone is making as much of an impact, if not more, than that one big night they had in the arena with a famous worship leader. Um, you just have to remind yourself of that.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, this I have to ask then did you ever dream of the big arenas? Maybe not even in a church setting. I mean, your voice could sing anything.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, sure. I always thought I that's always how I pictured how my life would go and it and it didn't go there. Um, I suppose there's still time, but I'm 44, almost 44. So, yeah, for sure. I thought that would be me. I thought I would be someone like Carrie Joe. Um, but I'm not.

SPEAKER_02

So did you ever imagine how that would work with also wanting to be a mom?

SPEAKER_01

No, I never did. I you just didn't think about it. I did not think about it. Yeah. When I became a mom, I was like, how do people I can't imagine having a world tour right now with this small child. Yeah. Like, and I was really grateful that I I mean, I just I was really grateful that if it was really a I don't know that it is, but if it was really either or choice, I was glad I chose motherhood.

SPEAKER_02

Um see, I ask myself that all the time. Was it either or? Did I even have because sometimes I think it is like I chose being a wife and mom here in northeast Missouri instead of maybe being an actress in Hollywood. But then I have to sort of to stop myself and say, um, nobody was handing you the other one.

SPEAKER_00

Knocking on your door saying, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's true. So, um, which I don't think is true for you. I think there were people in your life I remember who were in the industry and said, I can get you in.

SPEAKER_01

Right? I mean, there's thing I think for anyone who is an artist, there's things you could have done. There's doors you could have knocked on. There's people that you kind of know that, yes, for sure. Um, and then but then I do also think there's that little bit of luck, so to speak, for artists. Um, there's that one thing that happens and then it snowballs you. And I don't think that one thing ever happened um for me. I can't think of something. Okay. So in that sense, I suppose, yeah, maybe no one was really asking me to sing in arenas. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I I specifically remember when you sang with um Al Denson. Al Denson. A Christian artist Al Denson.

SPEAKER_02

I swear, I swear he said, like, I'm gonna I want to connect you to this person and this person and get you on the track.

SPEAKER_01

I never actually talked to him, but he talked about me to other people, but then nothing really happened.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, nothing interesting. So it wasn't you again, it wasn't you saying, no, thank you. It was, well, nobody told me.

SPEAKER_01

He never talked to me.

SPEAKER_02

Third person, someone's okay, interesting. Um, so I angst about this constantly. Did I did I miss a did I miss the moment that could have or the the hard work that could have gotten me in a place for the good luck? Do you not angst about it?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, no, I do. Okay. And I think Ryan and I both do, because it's kind of a team dream, I would I suppose, to to make a living off of art. Yeah. And we have tried a few things. Ryan and I sometimes say to each other that we feel like we always bailed, maybe just before it was gonna get good. Because there's so much hard work involved when it comes to creative pursuits, so much hard work with no pay for so long. Yep. And and so we would work really hard and then be like, we can't sustain this pace. Like for a while, we did a YouTube channel called Parenting is for Losers, and we made really he wrote these. really funny parenting videos and it was really great. Um and the ball was like slowly rolling, but it was so much work. And we weren't making money. And so it was unsustainable. So yeah, there's times where we think, gosh, if we had made one more video or, you know, gosh, if I had just if I'd made one more album, you know, yeah, I do get a little angsty, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, she has albums out there too, people. We will link to them in the show notes. And Parenting is for losers is still on the internet, right? Yeah. Isn't it? So you did. Okay. So we'll link to that too. Okay. So in a lot of ways, that worship job was your dream job. Yes. If someone described you and described that job, they would say perfect match. Oh for sure. Yeah, on paper, probably. So tell us in our new seg in this segment, time to go, um, your quitting story because you you aren't doing that now. So I want to hear about that transition. And I do want to talk about what you're doing now too, but um when did you know or how did you know or why did you know that it was that you needed to quit that role.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So um working as a worship leader, a worship pastor has some surprising things that once I got into it, I was like, oh, this is more than just singing on Sunday for sure. So there's all these elements to it that I don't think I understood. So you get into it or I I should say I, not you in general. I got into it and I was like, okay, this is different than I thought, but it's all right. And I had a lot of people in my life who were like we can develop you and we're going to help you learn these skills of like pastoring and detailed skills just like I mean I'm basically a manager of a team of volunteers. Oh boy. Is kind of basically the job. Um and and it's working weekends, which is something it's it's weekends and holidays.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01

The people that are caring for you in your churches, keep them in your hearts because basically what they do is work weekends and holidays um and evenings. Oh my gosh. And for any job that's a challenge. Like anyone who works a job of any sort you know nurses, police officers, those that kind of schedule is really challenging. And you're always glad you're kind of glad when you're not working overnights anymore and you're kind of glad when you your schedule switched to now you have Saturday Sunday instead of Friday Saturday or whatever. So that was a surprise. I just didn't realize what that would be like in life. And uh but you learn how to schedule your life around that of course right you know people stay in ministry for years. It's it's fine. But um I got to a place so basically I did it for about a decade and all within that decade there were always times I wanted to quit. I think because of all jobs I think ministry is a really high I think I should quit kind of job because just of the unique challenges and the unique um connection when you're in ministry, your identity and your spiritual health and your spiritual community, your bosses are often your pastors I mean usually your bosses are your pastors and it's it can be really challenging to navigate those enmeshed relationships. So that was all a challenge and I do actually feel like there's ways I figured it out like I'm like okay I know this is hard but I know how to compensate for it. I know how to make my life work around the fact that I will be doing Christmas Eve at church for the rest of my life or whatever. You know? I kind of figured it out I had there were times I had um a leader in my life who wouldn't let me quit when and I mean that in a positive way when he knew he's like you you don't want to quit right now because it's the right time you want to quit because it's hard but you can do it. You can do this. You're capable of this and um and a community of friends I think especially if you're in a job where it feels so tightly connected to calling having friends in your life who will say to you I know this is hard but this is this is very spiritual but this is what God has made you for this is the season you can do it. And then you um those same friends will probably be on your side when you're like I think it's time to stop and they'll be like I think you're right. Oh my gosh I love that. I think you've done it you did the hard work it's been a season of your life and I think I think it's I think you're right. I think it's time which I had that as well. The other thing I learned during that decade of um work as a worship pastor was to and I I learned this a little bit from the book Essentialism which have you read the essentialism book? Oh yes yeah one of the little things he talks about is that you're not a victim in any situation. Do you remember that part of it? Where like tell me okay so like everything okay and I'm just talking I'm not talking about personal relationships but in your life choices like what job I'm taking all that you're not a victim to those. You made those choices. And so switching that in my brain because I had this kind of thought that like well God called me to be a worship leader so I have to and so it's so hard and it's because God called me to do it. I just have to suffer through it. When I'm like no no no I first off chose to follow Jesus that's my choice and second of all I chose that this is how I'm gonna follow him. I chose that this is the way I'm gonna serve him. There's a million other ways I could serve him and he would be cool with it. But I chose this one. I chose this staff position and I realized that I was doing it to my kids. Like I was making my kids victims when they weren't even feeling that way anyway but I would be so sad for them I would like in December I'd be like dropping them off at grandma's so I I have to go to I have to go to rehearsal for Christmas Eve service. I'm so sorry. I hope I can't be here having hot cocoa with you but maybe grandma could. I don't know and I would like feel guilty and bad. Meanwhile my kids are like woohoo we're going to grandma's for hot cocoa you know they didn't care and I even asked them in this switch of my job I'm like are you guys like relieved that I won't be in ministry anymore is that like are you like excited for that change? And they were all like what are you talking about? Oh my goodness like our life has not been hard our this has not been difficult for us. And so I realized I was doing that kind of early on and that I needed to switch my brain and be like well for one thing you get to go to grandma's and make cookies tonight in December. Yeah to go to rehearsal I'll see you later and this is something we're doing together as a team because for our family serving the church is something we're gonna do forever no matter whether it's on staff or not staff. So let's do this as a team and part of your rule is that mom and dad are going to rehearsal tonight and you're gonna go to grandma's and have fun. Or hey you're gonna come with us to rehearsal only Chick-fil-A in the sanctuary while we rehearse and they actually have really fond memories of that. Of course while I was feeling all angsty like my poor kids not having their parents in December and they didn't feel that way at all. So letting go of that victim mindset and being like no this is this is what I chose. This is what I wanted this was my dream job with the dream situation. And the the other thing that helped me in that season was when I read that book which I know you read as well and I can almost 4000 weeks. Yeah I think so 4,000 weeks. Yeah and in it the guy talks about cosmic insignificance and how much pressure we put on ourselves for every little decision in our lives and it sounds so sad but it's actually really liberating to tell yourself what I do with this decade of my life actually does not matter in the cosmos. Like no one's gonna remember this it's not gonna make or break history very few of us are the linchpins of history and we don't know it anyway. We want to be and culture like you're like you said earlier culture tells us the only way that you really matter is if you are making an impact whatever that means and so that's ingrained in us. But the truth is just living a small life and loving your husband and loving your kids and having great friends and having a job that pays the bills is good enough. And you're not gonna miss some vast eternal plan doing the good enough thing.

SPEAKER_02

I think oh my gosh I had the same experience reading that concept I can hardly even repeat it and figure out why it's comforting because it does not sound comforting it doesn't like you're not really that significant in the cosmos but it is so comforting. I've actually I feel it when there was one time I was honestly I was probably going through a cancer recurrence but I pretty much could promise you what I was angsting about that day was my job. That's classic me. I have cancer but I also have a job I don't like and I prefer one over the other but anyway um and I we drove to we we have to drive to a big city Kansas City Missouri to do my cancer stuff and so we were you know we come from this small town and start melding into traffic everywhere every restaurant is packed people everywhere and I did feel kind of instant peace that I was not that big of a deal. Like my little job problem my cancer pro they were small in everyone around me was experiencing any number of the same kinds of things and I have n I I I can't even ex articulate it but it did it was cosmic and this that sense of cosmic insignificance and it just made that dumb work angst for sure smaller like much smaller. It's a good feeling.

SPEAKER_01

I do have friends who have significance is one of the Gallup Clifton strengths it's yeah oh it's cosmic it is yeah and some of my friends have that strength and they hate talking to me about this this is not comforting to me I do not like it when you talk about cosmic insignificance but I don't have that and I and so to me it's like sweet I didn't miss some vast eternal plan. This is enough I love that feeling but people with significance don't I have to um go look at my strengths.

SPEAKER_02

Fulstein I talked about it too and so I did look at it then and I don't think significance is in my top five on the flip side though when I figured out my values which is you can go online and find these tests where you just have a bunch of words and you just start circling the ones that you like and that matter to you and then you start combining the ones that are similar and you narrow it down until you have four or five what you would call your values and one of those for me I have personally identified is significance. I want to do things that matter yeah but I don't think it's in my Clifton strengths. And so that's interesting. I've just invented it for myself that I do care about being significant but apparently it's not um I don't test that way. I test with the little chell like I I don't have to matter it's fine.

SPEAKER_01

So the way that I leveraged cosmic and some insignificance with work was that it's really easy to get caught up in these little tiny decisions. So like in my role there's things like you're planning Christmas Eve service and I would get really in my head like I have to find the perfect song for the candlelight moment or whatever. And then I'm like it doesn't really matter actually first of all there's 12 carols we sing them all just pick one of those you know we're gonna sing it again next year. Nobody cares um and that and that is freedom because that's like okay I don't have to spend here all afternoon thinking that the song I choose for the special moment in Christmas Eve is going to radically change people's lives could God use it in that way? Yes. But I don't have to fret about it because no one's gonna remember it. If you ask me what if I sing for Christmas Eve last year nobody knows. No idea but we spend so much angst on it. So did did this cosmic insignificance concept aid in your decision to leave the jump I think so because there's this thought and I'm sure it's true for people in lots of jobs like but it what if I what if I'm gonna miss something here if I let this go? Like what if something is just around the corner what if I don't know I don't know whatever it is that you're doing whatever your job is you just what if that big promotion is around the corner and I go somewhere else or what if um that wasn't really a consideration for me because it doesn't really work that way in church world but um yeah I was like okay if I'm really free if it really in a healthy way doesn't matter what I do um I definitely want to quit my job.

SPEAKER_02

I knew yeah so there came a point where you knew and so then in that moment if your boss pastor would have said no no you just want to quit because you're uncomfortable you would have been able to say that's not true this time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah for sure nice and your friends also kind of and I and I had really help um really awesome boss pastors who really listened to me and believed me and understood me and yeah walked me through it um and agreed with me. I mean on the one hand what are they gonna do if I say I want to quit my job like seriously be like no no no no they're not gonna do that because they love me. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02

How long would you say you were pretty sure you were going to quit before you quit?

SPEAKER_01

Like when did you kind of knew I I I think it's time, but then it was quite a while I think before you actually did what's interesting is once I kind of had a season so if I could sum it up there was a season of I think I should quit because this is too hard and I don't think I'm good at it, which was wrong because people were like no you are you can you're capable of this and you're providing value and and so then I got over that hump. And then there became a time where I was like I just really think I should hand this off to someone.Feels like someone else should do this is someone else's time to shine but there was like no one just this is another probably church world specific thing but there wasn't really anyone clamoring so to speak for my position. Um really yeah there wasn't like some young up and comer who really wanted it just didn't feel that way anyway. So I was like okay and I remember there was a time where I had been talking to my bosses actually for a long time of like I think I'm supposed to turn this over to someone and they were like we're open we just don't know who it is and then there came a time where I was like you know what forget it no no one is like coming through the woodwork here. So I'm just not gonna quit I let's just stop thinking about it. Let's stop thinking about me quitting and from that point on I like I was like in the zone and it was great. What? Like my job felt easy it felt light I felt like I know what knew what I was doing. I felt like I've just I don't know it just was this zone of like this is sweet and I and I did love my job. I love still my church is a great place to work and yeah it was just like this zone of this is great. I know what I'm doing this is it and then really honestly really what happened was then Ryan and I hit a um job situation where it was possible that I could stop making money like for our family. He got this kind of big promotion and it was like huh I guess we could consider from a financial aspect it would be simpler to consider this now. And when we got to that point that's when I was like it was it was a couple things. It was the financial aspect and then it was um church staff taking us through the working genius thing.

SPEAKER_02

The what now? I knew you wanted to talk about this I was about to bring it up but what is the working genius? I've actually been told before and I've never read it or done it. I gotta hear this again.

SPEAKER_01

Okay so it's the work I have it up here so make sure I kind of say it because I actually didn't read the book but it's the working the six types of working genius by um his name is Patrick Lincioni I think Lincioni um theworking genius.com or working genius.com is where you can find it. So my church used this to it's kind of like just you know personal personality profile thing again. And they had everybody take the test and work through what kind of type they are what kind of working genius they were. And the way he uses it there's six types and they're categorized by um altitude levels. So there's some jobs that are like 4000 feet or not jobs, some geniuses, some strengths whatever that are like 40,000 feet people and then there's like 10,000 feet people and like on the ground people, right? That's how he you can use that for your working genius and also for what kind of meeting this is which is awesome what kind of what? What kind of meeting? Yes in your work like this is this is a 40,000 foot meeting in this meeting we're gonna what if and talk about how we could change things yada yada because you know how that can be conflicting if one person in a meeting is what ifing and the other person is like I just need to know what to do this afternoon for my job. Yes. And then there's a clash. So it also turns out there's people who are just better at those 40,000 foot things and better at the 10,000 foot things or whatever. So they're called wonder, discernment, invention, enablement, galvanizing and tenacity they're named you can go to the website and just kind of get the brief synopsis of what they mean. So we all took this test and it turns out my working geniuses are always the 4000 feet ones. My top two are are wonder and discernment and wonder is like the it's the 4000 foot one. It's like you like to well let me just the genius of wonder is the natural gift of pondering the possibility of greater potential and opportunity in a given situation. So you like dreaming essentially and my job was for sure not that. And it was really helpful to talk to people even my bosses and to have this language to show okay this is why I'm kind of losing my mind in some areas is because I want to like in my say in my role specifically I want to like maybe I want to think how Christmas Eve could be even cooler or better and I want to come up with ideas for that. But my job was actually just to make sure Christmas Eve happened at my campus.

SPEAKER_02

Tell right give us a few practical like you literally had to choose the people schedule them call them.

SPEAKER_01

I choose the team um but and I I make sure that the technology works in my campus like oh gosh videos or we're playing tracks behind the music um some a lot of tech stuff was was a lar huge part of my job um which was really kind of a nightmare to me and and it was just just because of the way we organized which you got it organized one way or another. So the way we organized was basically um it was chosen for you like Christmas Eve, this is your plan here you go here's the Christmas Eve plan make it happen in your context at your campus. So is it was the 4000 foot dreaming which I was sort of a part of sometimes but not always. But then most of my job was on the ground making it happen which I realized I don't enjoy that. I don't love putting all these details together. I don't love I like one of the examples I've told people is I realized towards the end if I get another text from from like Central basically is what we called them like asking if the shade of blue looked good on our graphic and our computers at our chur at our campus or not I was like I don't care I don't care about the shade of blue on the side screens I just and I can't I just can't care anymore because it just wasn't my working genius.

SPEAKER_02

But it was so much of what I did that I was like this is kind of why I'm dying inside I think and it was okay can can I take this moment to applaud your people for taking Through a program that essentially led you to the decision to quit, and then they supported your quitting. I think that is what I'm talking about when I talk about work culture. It is build your people, treat them like humans. Um be willing to empower them, even if that means that it leads to them leaving you. Because the opposite is true. You might empower, they might have empowered your um successor in that moment as well, because someone may have realized, I'm so good at that. That's my thing. And that, you know, so both are true, and people have to be willing to open the door for people to understand themselves because you're gonna get those sides. And that's impressive and well done, then.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's sure this was really, really, a really healthy, awesome place to work.

unknown

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Do you feel we have told your your quitting story fully? Did we miss anything?

SPEAKER_01

Well, the other thing, maybe the just another piece of it that could make sense to people as well, if you don't understand working genius, is just I think it all also timed well with like being over 40. Oh. And understanding, I understand you and I know you and Phyllis just talked about growth mindset and smart girl syndrome, and and that is like so important. But there's also that side of there are things that you're not good at and you're never gonna be good at them. They're never gonna be easy for you. This is not something that yes, you can always develop and grow and and learn a new skill or um get better at something, but only so much when it's not something that's naturally a strength. And so I was like, I know I've hit that spot where I'm not this is never gonna be like making sure that the video is connected to the audio in the graphic, yada yada. That's never gonna be something for me that just fills my cup. It won't. Can I figure it out? Yes. But I'm dying inside and I will always die inside.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my god. And we did talk about that too. That Love Plus work book talks about how your strengths are not just the things you're good at. It is, it's not at all the things you're good at. It's the things that give you strength that you are strength in.

SPEAKER_01

When I did, when I did quit, it was funny how people would be like, oh, but you're so great at this. You know, and I'm like, thank you. I am. But I think the age thing, I think when you're 20, I think you have to give yourself some time to figure out is this something I can really grow at? Okay. Or is this a strength or not? But I think when you're 40, I think you kind of know. And I think it's fair to be like, that's a thing that I'm I'm never gonna be. And it's not, it's not negative. Everyone wants, everyone wants you to be like, no, you can totally grow and be the best at anything. Like, no, you can't.

SPEAKER_02

And maybe I don't want to. And you're I don't know that you're supposed to. Actually, the one of the first times I heard that was in like people magazine, one of the one of the boy band boys. I think I could tell you which one it was. I think his name is Drew, and he was also in Dancing with the Stars, but I can't think of his last name. Um, and he said that. He said, It's not true that you can be anything you want to be. I couldn't have been in the NFL period. I am this big. But I can do what I am doing. And and it that was maybe the first time I'd really heard someone say that because the message is typically you can do anything that you set your mind to. And that's really not true. Um that's that's cool. Okay, so you decide you figured out your working genius, you knew you wanted to quit, you had supportive people around you saying, Okay, we understand and you can do it. What then was it like? What was the transition like?

SPEAKER_01

So I was strangely surprised at how difficult it was to sort of unravel the identity aspect of what I did. So letting go of you're no longer the campus worship pastor. That's not your title anymore. You're just a girl who volunteers here, was harder than I thought it was going to be because I assumed I would be cool with that. But letting go of that was hard. And then not just not knowing where, um, especially because it it was at my faith community, which I'm still a part of. So that I would go to like a prayer service or something with mostly church staff, and I would be kind of like, who am I in this room now?

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01

Who do I even say hi to or what? I would I felt oddly insecure about who I was because I had let go of a title. So it was that was actually has taken, I I would say right now, a year later, I do not feel that way. I feel at home and comfortable in that world, even volunteering, I feel great. But it took a lot longer than I expected to let go of an identity that had defined me for so long.

SPEAKER_02

That's fascinating because I feel like I've experienced that, even that thing that people say, you are not your job. And I always want to go, heck no. Like I know I'm not my job. My job is not meaningful to me. It is a paycheck, whatever. But then I realize kind of what you're saying. We we do wrap it all up in our identity. It's so true.

SPEAKER_01

And potentially, especially if you're in if you're in that spot where your hat, your job is what matters to you. When that meets for some people, I would imagine it's harder.

SPEAKER_02

Do you feel as much um I'm walking in my calling by worship leading on Sunday volunteering as you did as the worship pastor, at least now?

SPEAKER_01

Now I do, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. But then it you would say it was a little muddy. Like, were you still doing this?

SPEAKER_01

I just felt a little bit like, am I running away from what the Lord has asked me to do? I still kind of questioned that in my heart, but but now I don't. But it was longer than I thought that I felt that way.

SPEAKER_03

Interesting. Good point, good um, good thing for people to think about.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

So charity, what did you do next? And was what you're doing now at all part of making the decision to quit the worship leading?

SPEAKER_01

What I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_02

That is a Yeah, like is it not was it not just I need to quit this, but I'm going to blah.

SPEAKER_01

It wasn't actually. I did not have a plan, which is a really stupid thing to do. Oh, you say? I think I say that in the Darn you.

SPEAKER_02

I literally just saw a post yesterday that said and I saved it on my phone, and it says, someone, hi, me. Should I quit my job or not? Be honest. And charity is saying, don't do it without a plan. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I would say, in general, not knowing what you're gonna do is not wise. But financially speaking, we were okay. So basically, I have Ryan to thank for this because he is supporting us, and I'm like getting to just kind of relax and explore, to be honest. And I something that sounds so diva and bougie, but like I've it's been almost a year that I've been off staff, and in my head, I had imagined that something really wonderful was gonna happen. And I don't I don't know exactly what I thought it was gonna be, but I think I thought I would magically have all this free time, and so then I would write the next Caldecott Award children's book. I haven't done that. I've worked on it, but I'm not finished. You know, there's things that I thought, now I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna write so many songs because I'm not having the like all those details I don't love on way in on my brain, and I'll be free. And turns out none of that has happened. So I don't feel like a failure, but there are times where I'm like, I did a oh, I think it was a month or two ago. I was chatting with Ryan and I was I was probably crying. And I was like, am I only valuable if I make money? It's that I I think I was fighting the feeling, which again is a really weird feeling for me because I'm not an ambitious person and I'm not I don't have these big businessy ideas and things, entrepreneur stuff I want to accomplish. But I just felt like do we get our identity? Do we get our, yeah, I'm doing great because I'm making money?

SPEAKER_02

Because I I just kind of that's such a good question. I I think we all had that. Okay, so many thoughts right now. Um, but first of all, like this is the meat to me of this, of your there's so much interesting about your story of quitting kind of the dream job and why and the working genius. But now what this is the stories we hear all the time are I quit my six-figure job and then started this small business. It's what I was always meant to do. I'm a writer, so the stories I hear all the time are that big publishing company turned you down. That was the best thing that ever happened to you because you were supposed to self-publish, and then you became this bulldog. None of that has happened. And it's and that's what where you're living is I mean, I thought and I hoped the next thing was just right around the corner and it was gonna come into come into my house um uninvited and and say and rescue me. And that's I live there. I live there, me personally. And so, and I think people have to under have to, I don't know, support each we gotta we gotta support each other and take care of each other in that uncertainty, and life is not maybe what you kind of thought it was gonna be. Um so I so I love that. But I will also say you are so not doing nothing. You are freaking homeschooling your young children.

SPEAKER_01

Is Violet also homeschooled right now? No, though, yeah. I have two girls in high school, and then I have two middle school boys at home homeschooling uh at public high school, the girls, and then yeah, and you still sing, and I still sing. That is an interesting thing about my job that I quit. I actually still get to do my favorite parts of that job, which is just straight up leading worship on a Sunday morning. I'm still doing that, and I'm I'm on the same team that I was running, and the guy who replaced me is just a gem of a dude. He's the best. We've known him for years, and he's like so excited for me. He's like, I cannot wait for this season of life where you're just gonna lead worship and not think about anything else. He's so great. So I'm doing that, which is so life-giving and wonderful. I can't get over how I lead worship on a Sunday morning, and it is uh I can't even put a number on it, but so much less exhausting than when I was the one in charge. Wow. It's the same hours that I'm at the location, same amount of services, but I'm not in charge of it. And so I'm just leading the worship and it's just great. So I'm still doing that, yeah, like on a vol as a volunteer. And then basically I've become a stay-home parent in our household. So kind of a traditional, which is another thing that I made a big fuss about when I left work because I really didn't want all the moms to think that I was just leaving to be a mom for some reason. Because I wanted them to know there's there was a lot of young mothers coming on staff at church, and I wanted them to know you can do this. Oh, you absolutely can do this. And if you're called to full-time ministry, your kids are called to full-time ministry, and it's gonna be great. Um, and so I made a big fuss about I'm not doing this so that I can homeschool my boys because I actually homeschooled while I was working. So I'm like, I'm not doing it to homeschool. I'm not doing it to be a stay-at-home mom. I really think there's something, I just don't know what it is ahead. Blah, blah, blah. And now here I am, just basically being a stay-at-home parent. I don't feel discouraged, but it is interesting. I don't think I thought I would be here a year later. At this point? Oh, it's been a year. It's been a year.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, first of all, so those young women, you can tell them your d your situation where you thought you were depriving your children of so much and they didn't give a darn. They were totally fine. So you do have a great message to give working moms in in ministry. Um the singing. Okay, so would you say, does your s your story back up don't try to make money from what you love because it'll lose its fun?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I don't want it to. I know.

SPEAKER_02

I don't want it to either. I said it with a like cringe on my like, don't tell me that's what you're saying. I don't think that's what you're saying. It's not but it is interesting. It is interesting that you're still doing it and you love it and you're having so much fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You don't get paid a dime for it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's where I am with writing, honestly. I just I I literally just let go of I just told myself, I want a thing that's really hard to get. Being a full-time paid writer is very rare. It's like the winning the lottery, someone said the other day. Um, and I still want it, but I don't have it. And what I do have is I get to write whatever I want whenever I want. And that is fun and it brings me so much joy and strength. And so I'm just gonna live. Um okay. Does your does your home school still have the most wonderful name I've ever heard for a homeschool?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it does. Okay. Ryan named our homeschool. It is called Unparalleled Awesomeness Acquisition School.

SPEAKER_02

Because you can name your school anything you want, right? That's the deal. I mean, you're like registered or whatever, but yeah, you have to have a name.

SPEAKER_01

Most people just do like long school, you know. That's what Ryan chose. And I tell you, there's a lot of misspells in that, all those words. What paralleled? I can't even remember now. The however many L's it has is very confusing. Awesomeness is okay. Acquisition. I don't know. Do you know how to spell acquisition?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I think there's a C and a Q, but that is where I would get stumbled right there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I bet the people in the offices who had to type in that name times on our form. So mad. So all you had to do was say it and they had to spell it? Well, I mean, I had to put it in one.

SPEAKER_02

You had to Google it up. Chat GPT helped you write that title.

SPEAKER_01

No, it was before. Oh, yeah. We named Ryan named it that when Nola was in second grade and she's or when she was in first grade and she's a junior. So it was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh. Okay. Oh man, we're getting we're getting close. I kind of yeah. Let me see. Let me see. I really want to ask more about hopes homeschool because I kind of just wanted, just real quickly, how involved is it? The the teacher mom of a homeschool of two boys in middle elementary or whatever you said. How involved is it? What how many hours of your day? What are you actually doing?

SPEAKER_01

Well, let me decide how judged I want to be by the internet. Honestly, I will answer this question.

SPEAKER_02

It's not that many people if that helps.

SPEAKER_01

But it will be all my friends. That's true. Um, so middle school is actually pretty fun because they can read on their own, so they can teach themselves. They can, I can hand them a worksheet and say, read the instructions and do it. Okay. In theory. So when for me, it's a lot of hands-on stuff. I have bot curriculum that takes them through. We do math together. The boys are 18 months apart. And so traditionally felicity in me. Yeah. So in school, they would be different, they're in different grades. Technically, they're sixth and seventh, but it is much easier to just do the same stuff together. So they're in the same level of math, and they do have their own um language arts. Sorry, they're in fifth and sixth. They're going into sixth and okay. Um late, yeah, it's May. So ahead in my mind.

SPEAKER_02

I think actually this is gonna air June 3rd, everyone. So they will be sixth and seventh graders, probably. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And so then we do science together, we do history together. Um and I am just honestly, everyone has a different philosophy. I'm a little more free and open and like, what are you interested in? Let's learn something that you have interest in, at least. That's the whole goal of homeschool. That's that's the what's the what I'm trying to say, the benefit of homeschools. We need to study what we want. Yes, there's standards we need to follow. And the scary thing I will say that will probably make people go, oh my gosh, is that I have this kind of attitude of like, I'm sort of committed to to homeschooling them through eighth grade. So there's a lot between kindergarten and eighth grade that you need to know, but you don't need to know any of it until the end of eighth grade. Okay. And so the pace is actually can be a lot different when you're just home schooling two children. So there's things that maybe if the boys were tested right now would not match up with the grades with their graded peers. Okay. For some moms, would give them a heart attack and they would be like, we have to work harder and and you can. You can work as hard as you want. Um, but for me, I'm like, we're just gonna make sure we get that to eighth grade covered and we're gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_03

I'm with you.

SPEAKER_02

So um I've heard it called open schooling. Have you heard of open schooling? I haven't actually. The first time I heard the concept of ask your kid what they want to learn was a guy talking about open schooling. And I think that's what he called it. And he specifically was talking kind of the same way, but his kid was up upper high school, like where they would be graduating high school if they were in a traditional school and had not had a very traditional education. But then when it came to open schooling, it's what do you want to learn? What do you want to do next? And we'll decide your curriculum from that. And this the student dis the kid decided, I want to go to college. And once that was the goal, then that shaped the curriculum differently and more because they had to pass certain markers or whatever to to go to college. But it was their choice. It was a really intentional decision. I like that. Yeah. Okay. Let's let's oh, do we have time? Yeah. Let's just play a quick game with you to see if we can help you find your next thing, if there indeed is supposed to be anything different than what you're doing. So this is called endless possibilities.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, wait. So before we play this game, can I say one little thing? Yes. And maybe this will help if after I play this game, but something I'm hitting right now in my life is realizing that when you are a person who has a very um forward-facing skill, for me, it it's singing. Uh-huh. I'm a very good singer, right? And yes. I mean, in in like, you could be on the radio levels. And so because of that, I think there is it's hard for me to see the other things that I potentially am good at because I'm like, but I should be singing because that's the best thing I do. I'm a singer. And I'm kind of like stuck in a rut. So like thinking about what's ahead, like, what if I'm never supposed to sing again? Like, what if what if singing is not the future for me? What if there's some you know what I mean? What if I'm actually good at something else, but I don't even know it because I've spent all this time just honing in and focusing in on this is the thing I do. I'm a singer. I sing.

SPEAKER_02

Have you seen the Taylor Swift clip where she says, they say the Jimmy Ballon or whoever it was says, why are you so good at this? Or how have you written so many songs or something? And she said, I mean, I'm not a well-rounded person. This is what I do. Like, I don't sports. I don't so I don't know. I took that to heart. Like that I started thinking, that's my problem. I've tried to be too darn well-rounded. I don't want to be well-rounded. I want to hone in. Okay, so let's see if let's just see if we can hone in. I don't know. Um, if you if you if you have no idea, just say, I have no idea. Okay. Can you think of something that you would do if you knew you definitely could not fail?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Well, what is it?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I like if I definitely knew I could not fail and it would get chosen and published, I would write children's books.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh. Okay. Interesting. I hope you heard my episode with Caroline Star Rose. Which talked about and you say it with delight. See, it kind of terrified me. I was like, yeah, I don't want a 15-page editor's letter.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But she loves them. I mean, she loves the revision. Anyway, okay, so cool. That's a good that's good. Okay. How about if you had just one day in the life of a blah? What would be an interesting one for you?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I would pick Brooke Lidgertwood, who's a leader. Brook Lidjertwood is a Worship leader. She was also for a long time Brooke Frasier. So she still kind of is. She she kind of has like a mainstream music career and then a worship leading sort of career. And I think she is wonderful. And it would be fascinating to me to see how her life actually works.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, that's a fun one. I love that.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, how about if you could play one on TV? If I could What would you play on TV? Then you really get to pretend this thing.

SPEAKER_01

That's funny. Uh if I could play something on TV, I would play a mermaid. Oh, and that's funny because I don't really like the ocean. No, but if I was a mermaid, I wouldn't be afraid of the ocean.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh. I love that. That was such a fun answer. Okay, how about if you bumped into yourself as a high school junior or senior and could drop a hint? What would it be?

SPEAKER_01

Aww. Just a hint, or I get to like tell her something. Either way.

SPEAKER_03

This is your fantasy game.

SPEAKER_01

You are gonna make a really good choice when you get married. Oh, I love it. That's what I would say. But I wouldn't tell her.

SPEAKER_02

But you wouldn't tell her. I know you have a whole song about that, which is so cute. Oh, I can't believe I didn't really get to Costa Rica, and you're gonna have to go soon, but I w I want to talk at least really briefly about Costa Rica because you did this awesome thing with your family last year. Three years ago.

SPEAKER_03

Three years ago.

SPEAKER_02

Time. It is nothing anymore. Okay. Um, where you took them to do schooling for several weeks. So tell me what it was, and as quickly as you can, kind of how how you came to that. But I do want to say that so you and Ryan are the center of many aha moments in my life because of things you would say to me. And one of them is when you guys did that Costa Rica thing, I said to Ryan, I want a Costa Rica. And he said, What do you mean by that? He didn't say it like that. He just, what do you mean? What do you mean when you say a Costa Rica? I said, Well, I guess I mean something people sort of talk about and say they want to do someday, but they don't do it. And saying that made me then realize, oh, I did publish a I did write and publish a book. That's a thing, that's a thing people say they want to do, but they never do. And I did it. So for my definition of what Costa Rica was, I guess I kind of have done it, but tell us about it. What made you guys do that?

SPEAKER_01

What's our Costa Rica was literally Costa Rica. I came home to write. Well, we had friends who um had had been visiting back and forth in Costa Rica, and they said there's a language school there, and people bring their kids, like whole families come. And I said to Ryan, I think that would be awesome if we could take all four kids and live in another country for we chose we were there for 10 weeks. We went to Costa Rica, went to language school together, and it was a really fascinating experience. And really so happy we did it. Our kids are just now asking to go back, though. Because there were some parts of it that were actually so challenging that they were so happy to come home. Um, we did we did language school for 10 weeks, and what we should have done maybe was done two weeks of school and one week off, two weeks of school, one week off or something, because it was school heavy. It's a four-hour, four hours straight of language immersion. But my kids, they were nine, they were seven, eight-ish, yeah, seven, eight-ish and like 12-13-ish when we did it. And the boys still have like a a reservoir of Spanish that they don't even like. Their accents are pretty good because they were there in a and they were so young, and that when you're so little, you take on an accent a lot better. Wow. Happy. And um yeah, we did it. It was, and I would say it was partially because I had wanted to do that with my life, and I didn't do that in my 20s, and I didn't end up doing it. And then I Ryan and I started dating and we got married. Um, and so for me it was kind of like a, oh man, I always wanted to go to language school and I didn't. And I was like, I guess I still could. I just have to take four kids with me. Um so I know that it benefited them, but I also have to admit that it was something I wanted to do. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you have advice for people for how to get in a position where you can do something that off the beaten path?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I will, I don't have advice per se, but I will say we are not rich and we still pulled it off. So it is really it sounds like something the only wealthy people do, but but we made it happen. And partially because we had sort of a windfall of money from COVID. You know how people, we just they just gave us money at COVID.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so we had a little chunk of change that we used for that. And then um at the time, I I guess this is a little unique. At the time, Ryan had a job where he was, for one thing, able to take 10 weeks off, but he also worked a little bit from Costa Rica. So I guess that's big. That's part of it. But my job was I couldn't do my job remotely. And so I just took 10 weeks off.

SPEAKER_02

And it was like a sabbat did they call it like a sabbatical kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01

They ended up, yeah, part of it did end up being a sabbatical for me, which was cool. So part of it was paid. And then the other half wasn't.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I have to Charity has to go pick up her um her girls from school. So I we gotta wrap up with the it worked for me last word. Um, what is something that, big or small, it worked for you once, like an aha moment, or it regularly works to help you find more purpose or meaning in life?

SPEAKER_01

I think a really good conversation with your sister. I love you so much. I agree. Or a good friend always works for me. I always feel like I'm gonna make it. I I always feel now people as a whole do not energize me, but a good friend or a sister definitely energizes me. Um yeah, a good conversation.

SPEAKER_02

I think that's so true. My gosh, that's so true for me too. But the crazy thing is I don't remember. I never remember, even though I actually do test extrovert, but I have so many introvert test uh tendencies as well. And so I'll forget. And so it will be do I really want to do this converse, you know, not with sisters, but friends maybe. It's like I don't, I don't, I don't need that in my life. Then it happens, and I'm like, oh, that fixed me. I did need that. My husband too. Yeah, conversations have totally changed me. Big good conversations with my husband. So that's a really good one. Charity, sure. Thank you so much for being here. I was so excited about this conversation that I was nervous, and I was thinking, why am I nervous to talk to one of my favorite people to talk to in the whole world? And it's because I was so excited, because I knew you had really cool things to say, and you did. And I love you so much. Thank you for being here. I love you too.