Know Who You Are, Find Adjacencies, and Always Be a Beginner with Melissa Cassera

Serenity interviews Melissa Cassera, a screenwriter, author, and publicity strategist, who introduces herself as a girl who has lots of obsessions. Melissa wants us all to celebrate something every single day, specifically something we accomplished. She offers advice about knowing what you want to do and applying it at a high level in many different ways, describing how she is a storyteller, which plays out in her publicity work, her screenwriting, and her books. Melissa's final advice is to put ourselves in positions to lose, or to be a beginner, because it will make us unflappable in the face of any rejection. Melissa's conversation is packed with advice for learning to validate ourselves, trust our gut, and discover who we are outside of any specific type of work. 

Chapters

2:08 Melissa describes herself as a storyteller, which plays out in many ways

5:10 How Melissa's work history mattered when she started screenwriting

5:58 Knowing what you want to do and finding adjacencies

10:00 Celebrate something. Every Day.

14:07 Our wish: work optional

21:11 Melissa starts a business and returns to acting to help fund it

27:19 From the casting chair, Melissa tells us all: It is not personal

29:40 Melissa's quitting story: leaving pharmaceuticals to start a business

34:35 Getting free of the need for external validation

42:24 When to question whether you've tied your identity to the wrong thing

50:42 What you accomplish is good enough and it absolutely counts

55:28 Melissa's podcast about having multiple income streams

1:02:27 It Worked For Me: Put yourself in a position to lose and always be a beginner

Links

Melissa Cassera (website)

Drip Trickle Flow Flood (Melissa's podcast)

Other things we reference in this episode: Work Optional, a book by Tanja Hester

I Do This For a Living is independently produced. 

@serenitylive

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to I Do This For a Living, a show that questions everything about work culture and asks how we can give as much time and energy to the things that matter as we do to the things that pay. Sometimes the things that matter pay, and we'll talk about that too. I'm Serenity Bohan, writer, project manager, and Melissa Cassara fan, which is important because she is my guest today. I'm so excited to have you. Did I say your name correctly? You did. Excellent. Okay, so I really debated how to set you up for an intro. The entire episode is sort of a getting to know you and what you do. So the intro is really a teaser, if you will. But I think I have a good idea for you. I learned about you online years ago when you were teaching people how to get their ideal customer interested in what they were selling. It was called Obsessed. Do you still do the Obsessed program?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I don't. I do not yes.

unknown 0:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Well, it was called Obsessed, and it was about letting your audience know you, not just your product. So, along those lines, I want you to imagine I come up to you at a party and I say, like, I'm kind of sick of talking to people about their jobs. I want to know who you really are. What would you tell me?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

That's a good question. I'm a girl who loves obsession. To be honest, that's it. Um if I were to give my formal intro, it's that I'm a screenwriter and author and publicity strategist, and I help entrepreneurs and creatives become obsessed with their work. So that's my formal intro. But frankly, I think of myself outside of my job title. So that's why I just say I'm a girl who has lots of obsessions. I love it. And you have lots, you say?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

I do. Yeah. So I hope we get, I hope we get to hear about some of those as we as we keep going. Um, so the first segment I'm gonna do, I I really I should change the title. It's a really boring title: billable hours. The hours that actually pay you. What would you say? What would you tell us you'd do for a living?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah, so I'm a storyteller for a living. That's my my main gig. That's what my billable hours are. And that plays out in multiple ways. I um I'm a screenwriter, so I write film and television, mostly film or film for television, if that makes sense. I write a lot of thrillers, um, also rom-coms and other things. And I write books as well under my name and under a pen name. And um, I also write for clients, so that can be anything for from entrepreneurs to corporate executives who need speeches. And in all of those realms, I'm telling stories.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

I love it. I love that you can simplify to that um that title. Um, I like to kind of talk to people who want your job someday. What would you say how you got there slash what does it take to get there?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

That's a good question and kind of a tough question at the same time, but it's it is a good one and I understand it. Um, I have a lot of different facets to the work that I do, as I mentioned. And what I find is a lot of people are most interested in like how to become a screenwriter or how to become an author. Generally, that's like most of the interest because those are incredibly difficult areas and profession to get into, right? I think it's like easier to win the lottery, like win a big sum in the lottery than it is to become a screenwriter. There's some strange It does feel that way. Yeah, some strange statistic on that. Um, but I think that as far as how I got there is, you know, I look at myself as a storyteller from a higher level, and I play that out in multiple different ways. So I don't really hinge my worth on one particular thing. I like to tell stories for TV just as much as I like to tell stories for an entrepreneur. Like both of those are very exciting to me in the same way. So I don't look at one as like more worthy or valuable than another. And I learn something from all of those jobs and all of those clients. Like I always learn things that then cross over into other realms. So when people ask me, like, how do I get into this? I think you want to look at what you want to do from a higher level and not get so caught up in like it has to be this one thing. You know, I'm only going to an example would be, I'm only going to write on a television show, right? I hope you do. I think you should hold that goal for yourself. And I think you should strive for that goal and go for it. And I want that to happen for you. I also would not close yourself off to other opportunities because when I look back at, and I'm only taking the screenwriting piece because that's generally the one most people are interested in. When I look back at like, how did I really achieve that? It was because I had so much experience already as a storyteller for entrepreneurs, brands, companies, executives, because I knew how to tell a story. And when I was going out and networking, no one wanted to talk about my scripts. No one wanted to talk about how much I wanted to be a screenwriter. They all wanted to talk about like my time in pharmaceuticals. They all wanted to talk, they wanted to talk about my life, you know, my professional life outside of being a screenwriter. And the reason is because all of the stories that you bring to fiction, right, to narrative or scripted work, come from your unscripted life, right? The experience there. So what I would say is like look from a high level, what do you want to be? What do you want to do? And then think of different ways that you can play that out. Um, I said on my my podcast, adjacencies. I we had an episode recently where I talked about that. It's like, look for adjacencies, right? And that may not be the exact thing that you want to do, but it's something that's going to help and fuel that.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Adjacencies. I don't think I've ever heard that word. I have listened to the podcast, but not that episode, I guess. I love that word. That's so good. Although I gotta say, sometimes I have avoided writing, for instance, in uh the day job land because I wanted it for my for my uh free time. But okay, I love that. Don't limit yourself to one thing. I have done that, Melissa. I had a friend, she said to me, What's next for you? What what do you need to get uh the the dream job or the life that you want? I said, I need a traditional book deal for a novel. She said, Why are you so specific about that? I said, I just am pretty sure that's the next thing I need. And it didn't happen. And she was right. It's not why was I limiting myself to that? It's it's yeah, I love that. Try to figure out who you are, and then there's different ways that could play out. That's that's so good. Also, you do know how to tell a story. One of my favorite emails from you was I I follow Melissa's email newsletter I have for years. It's my favorite one. Your voice is so encouraging. It's so encouraging. I just I read every one of your emails. What I really read is you can do it. That's what I hear. And um, you had a a series about how to tell a story in an email, how to open your email so people get the hook and they want to hear what's going on. And then you finish your story, and it was just brilliant. Um, okay, so is that a good question for you? Because it's you have such a varied work life. Um, can you tell me three-ish things that you do almost every day?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, I can tell you three-ish things I do every day. Um, well, one is storytell in some capacity. So, and the reason I don't say writing, because I think that would be a common one, right? Like a writer writes every day. I actually don't say that because that's not true. I don't always put pen to paper every single day. Um, but writing takes place outside of like um pen on paper or fingers on keys. It takes usually my best ideas, frankly, come when I'm out walking my dog. That's like anytime I'm stuck, I just go for a walk. And then that's that's when I get unstuck. So I count that as writing time, because that's when all the good stuff happens anyway. So um, so there is some component of storytelling every day, but that doesn't always look like me putting pen to page. Um so that's one thing I do every day. Number two, something that I do every day is connect. So it's this is so, so important. If you want to do literally anything, it's your network matters. And I don't mean like connecting for the sake of I'm gonna reach out and like only reach out to this person because I want them to buy something from me. I don't, or I want them to give me an opportunity. I do not, do not mean that. Uh, I'm a big fan of just connecting because I genuinely want to connect with that person. Um, and that could play out in different ways. It may just be, hey, I'm checking in because I I haven't talked to you in a while, let's get coffee or let's do a Zoom date. It could mean that maybe I do have an offer for that person. Sometimes that is the case. Like I just had that today. I connect reconnected with a client from three years ago who I was like, hey, there's this thing that I'm doing. I think it's perfect for you, and we're doing it. So it just depends on what that is. But connection is so important if you want to accomplish anything because you know, your network is everything. And then I'd say the third thing that I do every day, and I'm not always good at this, I'm getting better, is I I do a little celebration or gratitude. You could call it kind of anything, but I try to close the day with um acknowledging. I'm a big like pen and paper in my notebook girl. I try to close the day acknowledging what I'm grateful for or what I want to celebrate within that day, because I am somebody who will steamroll right over things that have happened. And to the point where it used to like it would it would become like I had have a book coming out, and I'd be like, oh shoot, I had a book that came out today. I mean, I just wouldn't even, or like I have a movie on today, and my husband would be like, what is wrong with you? Like, you're so and um, and I just wouldn't even celebrate what would be maybe considered larger accomplishments. So now I stop myself so that I'm not just taking a moment of pause to celebrate those larger things, but also taking a moment of pause to just really celebrate anything, right? Which could be I got myself to the gym this morning, yay me, pat on the back, right? So it's like putting your focus on that versus, oh, what didn't happen today, or the things I didn't tick off my list, or the no's that I got, because in the industry that I'm in, you get no's daily, right? It's very, very common. You get no's, you get critique, you get right, all of those things, rejections, all rejection and critique, which is fine. You build that muscle and and it's not a big deal. Um, but it's very you can get lost in that sauce if you don't shift your mindset to, okay, what do I want to celebrate today?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I'm applying that immediately. I love that so much. I need to do it. That's really good. Um what is one thing about your work that matters? Or more things than one.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Yeah, what matters in my work? I I mean, I think, well, first being on this podcast matters for sure, which is, you know, it's great that when you reached out to me to ask me to be a guest, like I love that you reached out because something that I sent in the past, um, or maybe multiple things I sent in the past had an impact on you. So that matters. I care the most about like individual one-on-one. When somebody reaches out to me and says, Hey, you said this one thing in an email five years ago. I I had somebody tag me on actually, I had someone tag me on Instagram today. They made a video and they tag me. They're like, Melissa told me this 13 years ago. And they're like, I still repeat it to this day. And I was like, see, that's why I do this. Um, because like that matters if I can make a difference for somebody, and I prefer it to be like that single person. I love when it's just like that one person, you know, if I can make a difference, or they call it, I don't, this isn't my term, but there's a term out there called day maker. And you, if you could like make someone's day, right? Yeah. I think that matters. And that could be, as you've said, maybe I send something that was encouraging, a you can do it, which yes, that is very much my my vibe. Um, so I try to do that. I try to just encourage people in life, and that doesn't just go through my business. I mean, that's just in general, friends. If I, you know, meet people out, if I go to the gym, whatever. Like I always try to hype people up because I think that's important. And um, and I want them to do whatever they want to do and try to go for whatever they want to accomplish.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

I'm the same. That whole individual thing, it makes such a difference. Then you know that somebody listened, somebody cared what I did mattered. It's that's really good. What is something you wish about work?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Well, I wish it was more optional. And there is a there is a book called Work Optional, which is my it's one of my favorite books, but I recommend it to everybody. Okay, that's getting on my list right now. It's so good. The premise really is that you know, a lot of people are working for retirement, right? That's okay too. I think it's just individual what what speaks to you. However, uh, I'm someone who I'm not really looking to retire in 10 years, in 20 years. Um, I can kind of see myself working in some capacity for like a very long time because my work I it's quite fun. I enjoy it. However, I don't want to feel beholden to it, right? I if I want to take off a month, six months, a year, take those sabbaticals, if you will, I want to be able to do that. So work optional is what I wish it was more for everyone. Um because we all need those seasons of rest or adventure, whatever you want that season to be that's not tethered to work. So, and I also think it's something I'm very passionate about is like work not being identity. And it's because I was that person long, long time ago. And I'm not that person now. It took a lot of therapy to unravel that. Um, and I'm so much happier and more fulfilled now because I'm not identifying with, you know, I got this opportunity or I am this title or I got this promotion. Those things are all great. Yay, celebrate, backpack, that's awesome. But at the end of the day, it doesn't like make me who I am. And so then there's not that like roller coaster of ups and downs, which you will experience if your worth is all tethered into your work. So work optional, I think is great from a um just a strategic standpoint of like building your life and having it so that you can take those sabbaticals or breaks, but also from a mental health standpoint as well, like untethering yourself to a certain outcome.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

I don't even I just want that to be our whole episode because that's what I feel too, is um I always say less of it. I want less of the the stuff you gotta do just to pay the bills and more of what we want to do. And um because I don't mind work. It's full it is fulfilling to accomplish things and to get things done, but it's the restrictive uh eight to five thing for someone else. Yeah, wish it was optional too. So yeah, I'm with you. Okay, let's see which direction would go next. Um, I think I want to do astronauts and rock stars with you. Have you heard the song Don't Quit Your Daydream, Lily Miola? No, she was on I think she was on America's Got Talent or something. My daughter-in-law told me about the song, and so that's what this segment is based on. Astronauts and rock stars, like what we used to dream. So, do you have an early memory or either the earliest or just most definitive memory of having an answer to the question, what do you want to be when you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Oh yeah, I was very clear about that. When I was a kid, I wanted to be an actor on Broadway. I was that was my like I was very singularly focused on that and very heavily trained for that. That is what I wanted to do. So you pursued it? I never actually really pursued it because I decided to go to college and like do the the do the thing, do the I'll put this in quotes for people that can't see, um, the responsible thing. Ultimately, I'm happy I didn't pursue it because I pr much prefer being behind the camera, although I don't mind being on camera either, but I definitely like it behind the camera for many reasons. Um, but when I was young, I definitely loved, loved, love performing. I was certainly lacking in many areas that I think if I were to have pursued it, I probably wouldn't have gotten very far. And the the reason is I am not a great singer. I took singing lessons for many, many, many, many years. Um, and so I didn't have that like triple threat. I'm a pretty good dancer and like a pretty good actor, but I would say I'm not anywhere near like Broadway worthy. So I don't really know how far I would have gotten had I pursued that actual career path. But when I was quite young, I uh definitely wanted to do that. And I would say that this was like elementary school, middle school, and part of high school, a little bit of high school. And then I had some personal things that happened that really changed the trajectory of life. So that went out the window.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

So what is that it went out the window hard? Like it was painful, you had to grieve it, or was it pretty natural? Like you just sort of moved past it.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yeah, well, my so my dad died when I was 15. So there was like a big sort of life shakeup at the time that really I stopped thinking about any like dreams. I was just kind of also I didn't really have the tools at that time, like the mental health tools, I think, to to know how to like cope or process that. Um, and then there were just some other things that happened around that time as well, that I just didn't have the tools to like process through that. So not to say I like had no dreams and I'm making this very tragic, but I I certainly didn't like think about them anymore. They weren't a priority in my life anymore. So then by the time I got to the age of which you are like deciding what am I gonna do? Am I gonna go to college, that kind of thing, I just sort of picked a normal path. Um, at the time I was like, I was working a ton. I I had just graduated high school. I was working full-time, managing in retail, and you know, just kind of living that like responsible um adult trying to be an adult life. And so then I went to just a four-year college with a sensible communications major, which I still do today. So that was actually a really good choice. Um, and yeah, and then I just didn't think much at all, frankly. Like it was, there was no grieving of the acting, I guess, at the time. I will say though, it really helped me because I went to college. I got a full-time job in my senior year of college working at Subaru, the car company at their national headquarters. Um, and then I left there shortly after I graduated college and went into pharmaceuticals for four years. Then I ran away screaming from that industry and um started my own business, which my husband's been a lifelong entrepreneur. So he was always like, Why are you working for someone else? Like, just go out on your own. So he was very encouraging that way. And so when I went out on my own, I had like, I mean, we had capital between the two of us, but it was like, you know, I didn't have there was certainly wasn't money coming in the door right away. You know, it took me a bit. I didn't know what I was doing. Like I knew how to run a business. I think I was like 25 or 26, somewhere around that age. And um, so the way that I actually funded my business early on was I went back into acting and I just went into the into the area of acting that would make me money, which is commercial acting and industrials, which industrials are like corporate work where you, you know, go and play like a nurse. I think I was a nurse for like every, like every possible pharmaceutical company hospital. It was a big mess because ever they were all competing and they were like, you can't have her. We need we have her um exclusive for six months. It was a funny, very funny, weird time. Um, and I did lots of like what I would call like unsexy jobs, like in flooring commercials, like ridiculous stuff. And uh, but it was a good, like a real good use of those skills. And um I did that, and that was how I started my business. The first couple of years, that was kind of the only way I was making money until I was able to transition.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

It came back around. The acting came back around. I also you told that story so articulately, which is and it's one reason I want to do this podcast and have um regular Joes, people who may not be able to see their story so clearly, how they went from wanting to be a Broadway actor to not and whether they grieved or not. And what you know, it's because I tried have done that recently in the last couple of years. I've tried to write kind of my whole story to see it. I just wanted to see it. What did it look like? Why am I not quite what I thought I was gonna be when I was younger? Am I okay with the choices I made? Can I change some choices now? And you told that story so well I can tell you work it out in your own mind, yeah, a lot. So um, did you ever have someone else tell you something you should be?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Huh. No, I I um I think when I was young, again, this is gonna sound like very tragic, and I don't mean for a channel. I don't want to like bring down the vibes. When I was young, I found I, for whatever reason, did maybe did not inspire uh people to find feel that I was very talented or creative in any way. So generally I would hear people telling me I wasn't going to be something. Like there was, I don't remember there was, you know, if we're talking about like teachers or coaches or mentors or something, like anybody at that time, no, it was usually like you're not good enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not this enough, that enough, that of. It's also a problem with the industry that I was entering into, right? Um, then in college, I experienced that again, where I was in a communications program. I was in my senior year, the only person in my class that had gotten a full-time job. So I was actually juggling. And I had my professor tell me that I was never going to work in this industry. And I'm like, well, I have a job now. I don't know what you mean. Very odd. It was very strange. So I don't know. I think when I look back on it now, it maybe was maybe I was bringing an element to things that didn't feel so much in a box. Like I'm I'm a little bit of a troublemaker. I like to, I don't know how to keep my mouth closed. Um, and so that that maybe was a bit of it. I maybe I was questioning things that they didn't feel should be questioned, right? And so that could have contributed to what that was. But yeah, so I I kind of felt the opposite where people would tell me that I wasn't going to be something versus um, I don't think there was maybe there there was one time somebody told me I went into a school to read for kids as part of like a rotary club, and they told me that I would be a good teacher. That was probably the only time I had anybody say you would be a really good teacher. And I'm like, oh no, that's not for that's not for me, but thank you. Like, bless all the teachers. I was like amazing that you exist. It just that is not my skill. But that was probably it.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

So I so that's such an interesting answer. Do you did it make you feisty? Oh, like, oh yes, I can, or did it kind of take time to work through that and decide you could decide for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 25:51

It didn't deter me. Like it didn't deter me. I don't know if it made me feisty or not. I'm kind of feisty. I'm from New Jersey. I think if you've ever met anyone from New Jersey, we have a uh specific sort of feistiness to us. Um, I grew up in an area where you sort of had to be feisty in order to survive. And so I don't think it did, it didn't like impact me that much. I think it just felt like this is normal. This is just what you hear. It that's maybe a little sad. Um, but it did feel very normal. It was like, uh, I mean, you know, I think my attitude towards it was always like, you know, 90% of the time I'm gonna hear this. And then, but there's gonna be like somebody out there or some opportunity. And that's really been my experience, you know. You do it's like 90% of the time it's a no. And then, you know, the but there's the 10% out there, and you just gotta find them, and you'll find them. That's it. That's kind of been, I think, my experience.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

See everyone, she says you can do it. That's her message. Yeah. Um, you're right about the industry. I had uh a friend in the industry who was talking to me about rejection and said her husband is an actor, and you don't know rejection until you're told that you you can't have the part because your eyes are too blue. Yeah. There's just no rejection, like something you absolutely cannot fix.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

And that is true because I, you know, I'm on the other side now. So I'm the one watching the casting tapes, you know what I mean? And I'm the one in the meetings with the executives, and I hear what they all say and avoid. And I mean, I have to give my reasons to a group of people too, of why, why do you have to if I want I if I want to cast someone as a lead in my movie, I gotta fight for why and why they shouldn't cast the producer's girlfriend. Do you know you know what I mean? So it's like there's a lot behind the scenes, and the best thing I can say, I know your podcast audience is not all filled with actors necessarily, but if there are actors listening, um it is not personal. I cannot tell you how impersonal it is and and how ridiculous sometimes the the decision is, and and and it really is nothing to do with with you and your talent and your looks. You know, it's it there's just very weird reasons that decisions are made. And so I do feel bad, you know, being on the other side of that and knowing like how tough it is. Because I was also on in front of the camera. I get it, you know, I've gotten all that feedback and been confused and been told all sorts of things. And so I think the more you can get it in your head that, like, you know, if it's for you, it's for you. If it's not, it's not, and you really can't question why. Like you can go in and do the best job you can for sure, but ultimately it is out of your hands. And they're and I think that's great to be able to say that. And I think that probably goes for everything, you know, jobs. I mean, if you're yeah you know, pursuing the job market, really anything there's you can't beat yourself up. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Okay. Um, so you set up this next segment beautifully when you said you ran screaming. I have not been able to do this segment with anyone yet. It's based on a Taylor Swift song, Time to Go. That's what this segment is called. And I believe you have a quitting story um that I'd like to talk about as much as you're comfortable. Um, you talked about uh being in pharmaceuticals for a little bit, four years, I guess you said. I kind of want to know when did you know that wasn't right and you were gonna get out? Was it about the place or was it about where you were headed to, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Um Well, I think sometimes when you work in industries like that, you it's very easy to lie to yourself and and look at what's happening around you and think that that's normal. And then there comes a time when you realize this, yeah, like this behavior isn't normal, right? Like it's and that could be like a conversation that you have with somebody or whatever. You just look outside of that. I um, so the pharmaceutical industry, or at least I don't want to paint the whole industry with a broad brush. This was just like specific to where I worked and also the time frame. Like this was now 20, 20 years ago. So I mean, they certainly things have changed, and there are certain laws now in place of what you can and can't do. So I will put that out there. I don't want to like tear down an entire industry. However, at the time that I was involved in this, there um it was very common for them to recruit young, uh, conventionally attractive people out of college and um, you know, lure you in in a, and not to say that we don't have fully developed brains, because we do. So we are also making that decision. So I'm no victim. Um, but they, you know, bring you into this space where it sounds really amazing because you're getting like a very high salary, um, your job seems exciting, you're traveling a lot, you know, you're whining and dining doctors, and um, but you don't think of it that way. You're you're thinking of it from like, oh, this is cool. I get to go to like Michelin-starred restaurants and it's all on the company dime. So, you know, that's the world that you're entering. And then you kind of quickly, well, not quickly, because you know, you're in an ecosystem, right? So you so you think in this ecosystem, like this is very normal. Um, I I'm a very skeptical person though. So I so it was pretty early on that I was like looking at the different things and being like, this doesn't seem, this doesn't really seem and no judgment. I say anybody who goes into that and enjoys it and it's it's fulfilling for them, cool. I have no problems with this. Um but then there's also a lot of people who enter that who kind of don't know what they're getting into. And there was just a lot of like things that I witnessed and saw and um at the time that I was like, this is so bunkers, I need to write this down because one day this needs to be a movie. I mean, that is really what I did because, and I did, I wrote it all down because I'm like, this is just so bizarre to me. And um, but it was, you know, again, good money, et cetera, et cetera. I think I really enjoyed the people that I worked with for the most part. And so that kind of kept me around. I also never really thought of myself as a business owner. I really liked working for someone and getting that praise at the time. I liked that. I liked getting the I liked being the boss's favorite and I liked getting the razors, and I was like very tethered into that. So, but then I was like, I feel like this is icky. I don't like the type of work, you know, and what's going on in this company. And you know, it was like a soap opera. And I'm at some point, you're like, I need to, I think this is not for me. So I was thinking of just going and getting a different job or maybe changing to a new industry. And that's when my husband was like, what no? Like, you, why would you not go work for yourself? Why would you put your future in someone else's hands? This doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, you don't make any sense. And we had we had lots of arguments at the time, and I was like, fine, I'll do it for a year. And in my head, I'm like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go, like, I'm gonna go get a job after that. This is just for me to like show him that I that no, this is wrong. And um, and see, I my sassy comes out, right? And so I so I did that, but then like once I left, and it was a tough first year, but I think still I did see like the value in doing, and I got excited enough that I wanted to continue. There was a little part maybe halfway through that year that I almost went back to the company that I left. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And and luckily they didn't have like my position anymore. Like, so they were like, but of course we'd love to have you back. It's just like they didn't have an opening. So it was like, okay, well, no rush, but you know, I am in, and then I then I was like, What am I thinking? What am I thinking? Um, and then luckily I stayed away because two years after that, they la laid off like half the company, right? And so it was like of course.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Um, and that's can you explain the the the fear or the the emotion that was happening that made you almost go back? Was it money?

SPEAKER_00 34:43

No, no, it was just it was that I wasn't getting praise. Like I was the only one that could praise myself. So what I like what I I hated it, I was like sitting there and I'm like, no one's telling me I do I did a good job because I'm the boss, right? And I'm like, where's my performance review? Like, where is my boss telling me I'm there? I was such a baby. I was really a baby about it. I was kicking my feet, like throwing tantrums. I'm like, this is awful. I hated it. And you know, my husband, who was like at the time just more mentally sound than I was, because he had gone through a lot of therapy and things. He was just like, girl, you need to go to therapy. Like, this is what are you talking about? And and I was very resistant, but then I did. And then I was like, okay, like the problem is me. The call is coming from inside. And so I realized I was the problem. And I worked through that. And just realizing that that that was actually at the core what I was craving, I was lying and saying it was stability. Like I was saying, I want that paycheck, that paycheck. And my husband kept saying, that is not stability. They can lay you off, they control your paycheck. And I'm like, no, it's the paycheck. And really, I mean, I was not telling the truth. I think I wasn't even actually mentally aware enough to know I wasn't telling the truth at the time. Later, I dug and realized, oh, I was using that as like an excuse. But really, what I wanted was that validation, right? That felt really good to be like, you, you, you know, I got this big job and this fancy, you know, this fancy life and this salary and my worth. And, you know, look at me, and I'm so young, and it just all these weird, strange things that I was thinking at the time. Um, then I was able to shed all of that and realize that it is not healthy to get validation that way. And once I did that, uh, it was not smooth sailing, but it was much smoother sailing than previously. So that was that.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

And you've brought that back to your life with your celebrations every day. Yeah. You found a way. Yeah, I gotta validate.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

It's true. We that that is very important for um, you know, for anyone, anyone working for themselves is you've gotta learn to not even just work, outside of work too. Like we've all got to learn how to validate ourselves and not be reliant on, you know, other people or a job or an opportunity to do that. Uh, because that's a slippery slope, right? That's it's a dangerous place to go. So the more the earlier we can do that, the better, right? And if and if that's something that whoever's listening is struggling with, like again, no shame. I've been there. Um, but it is like a great thing to work on. A great thing to go to your therapist with next week or this week and just say, hey, this is happening. And it's like, it is just such a I'd say of all I've worked on lots of things, of course, because we're all messy humans. But um, that was probably one of the most important things I've ever worked on.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

I think that's so good. I I am learning to do this. I always say I talk really nice to myself because I try to talk to myself like I would talk to a friend or if I was, you know, talking to one of my kids. But um the the I've been I read a lot of books about um happiness, designing your life. And um, this message is the message is that hits me the most is often you have to do. You can't think your way or dream your way into the life you want. You have to do it. And the other day I was thinking to myself, I that's my problem. I never do anything. And then I remembered all the things I've done. I do do things, you know, and I was able to like you said, tell myself, I tried this, I tried this, this was successful. And this isn't in my definition of successful, I did this. It was so helpful. I love that. Um, would you, when it comes to your your leaving pharmaceuticals and doing the the thing um God bless your husband for pushing pushing you. I think I I keep hearing a theme in these episodes that other people are really key to um to our lives. It's it's very they're very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Did you or would you do anything different in how you transitioned or how quickly you No, I think I think I'm good with my path. Um I mean, maybe I maybe it would have been better if I like got to therapy earlier and stopped fighting it. But but honestly, even that feels like it was the timing is good. Because I I think we all have to like arrive at that. Like there's here's okay, I keep bringing out my my husband has lots of little wise words. So one thing that he says is like you go to therapy, so it's like there's the date that you start going to therapy, and then there's the date that you start being honest in therapy. And so I think that's like really key because I've also experienced that, right? I was I was a people pleaser growing up. So when I first started going to therapy, I remember it was so bad. Like I was not sharing anything to the point where like my therapist is like, you're doing so well. Like I'm not even sure what we should talk about. I was like, wow, this is this is yeah, this is on me. I got a gold star in therapy. And we're not having a problem because I wasn't honest. We had no problems, which is so wrong. And so I mean, that's on that's on me. Um so so sure, but I I think that that's that's still like again, you we arrive at that in our own time. Like, I don't think I would go back and say, oh, I like wish I was honest sooner, because you know what? I just wasn't there. I wasn't there. Like you like, we all need to take our time to, and it's different for all of us, right? How long that takes. And so I hate to be like, I wish I could have done it faster or sooner. I also am not a person that thinks like we it's too late to do anything. That's I I don't believe in that at all. Um, if anything, I mean, the the later you come to things, sometimes the better because you come in with so much more knowledge and so much more like conviction in yourself, and all of that is so important. Like, thank goodness I didn't start pursuing screenwriting in my 20s. That would have imploded. Imploded. I I would have it, I cannot even tell you. I'm like, I didn't start pursuing it till I think I was 36. Thank goodness, because I don't know. Oh no, I do know what would have happened and it and it would have been bad. I would have for sure gotten taken advantage of. I would have probably like gotten to a very dark mental place because I wasn't in a good place as it was, right? And I wasn't getting support at the time or just being as honest as I could have been. And so then thrusting that mess into Hollywood, oh boy. So thank goodness. Um, so that's why I don't think I don't think that way. And again, like even for now, you know, the things I do now, I feel like this is good. The timing feels right, like it's right for me.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Amazing. I I'm just astounded and don't want to keep talking because I just want to hear you talk. So, but I'm gonna quote you now. Um actually you get you're gonna do a little therapy session for serenity, okay? You prepared for this? No. So you uh mine is not from 13 years ago. It's just from July. You had a Substack post about things you've learned in your now that you're in your 40s. And this is the quote I'm not what I do. I write for a living, but I rarely introduce myself that way outside of a professional context. I'm proud of what I do, but I don't lead with it. My work matters, but it's not the most interesting thing about me. The people closest to me care more about who I am than what I produced. Writing is how I process the world. But in my personal life, I'd rather talk about the wild TV show I just watched, a dance class I loved, my garden, or a dinner that blew my mind. Titles are helpful, but they don't tell the whole story. I love that so much. I for sure agree. Work is not who I am, but here's what kind of what I want to talk to you about have you therapy me. Um you are a writer for a living, and you say you don't lead with I'm a writer. I am not a writer for a living, but writing, as you said, it's how I process the world. It I can be angsty and not really know why for even days at a time. And if I'll just write a substack post, write in a journal a good journal entry, it usually has to be kind of outward facing for it to really work. But I'm fixed. It's like that's my joy, it's my strength. So I do tend, since I don't want to lead with what I do for my day job, I do tend to lead with I'm a writer because I've settled in my heart that it doesn't have to be I'm a paid li writer for a living. So talk to me about that a little bit. Do you do you get where I'm coming from? Do you think I'm still tying my identity to a thing more?

SPEAKER_00 44:20

No, I think in the in the context, uh I'd I wouldn't say that for you. I mean, of course, you could do a different turn of phrase. Like instead of saying I'm a writer, you can say I love to write. Right. I mean, that's if that speaks to you. Um, but I think contextually, this isn't an issue for you, or at least at this, at this juncture, it's not an issue for you. And what I mean by that um is I don't find, at least in this conversation that we're having, that you are like deriving all of your self-worth from being a writer. That if you don't have a movie on screen or a book on the shelves, or you're not being paid for it, that like you're in the dumps and you are like, what is my life? And nothing has meaning. And I and I don't say that to joke. That is generally how a lot of people feel. Yeah. So I mean, I just, you know, I lived in LA for 10 years, and that that is um sadly how a lot of people feel. So if that is how you feel, I think that's a great time to like question and say, hmm, does this serve me to identify as this? Like, is this the most interesting thing about me? Like, how do I feel? And and if you can truly say when I tell people, when people like say, tell me about yourself, and I say, Well, I'm a writer, and there's that lights you up, you feel great. There's none of this like down in the dumps, I feel like an imposter, all these things coming up, right? Then say it. If that makes you feel great, then say it. But if it's if it's this, and I've heard this so many times, if it's like, well, I'm a writer, and then you're clenching because you're like, I know the next question that they're gonna ask me is what what have I read, what have I seen that you've written? What have I read that you've written? And you're like already clenching because then you're gonna have to be like, well, I haven't had anything published, or like, well, it was like this obscure thing that didn't do very well, and then it's like this like terrible conversation you don't want to have. So if that's how you're feeling, like maybe that's not what you want to lead with, or if you feel okay with that, I mean I get that question all the time. If I because my husband will often say my wife is a writer, not that I identify that way, but like if he might just say it in conversation. So what generally happens is if I meet people through him, they'll be like, your husband, and he's proud. So he likes to talk about that stuff. So it's always the same. I can just, it's like you don't even need to say I know exactly what you're gonna say. It's always, your husband told me you're a writer. What have you written that I've seen? Like it's I mean, it literally is just rinse and repeat. And generally, I just will say, like, I don't know, do you watch this? Or like, you know, or I'll and I don't say it in a bad way. Like, I'm proud of what, you know, I don't know, do you watch this? Or if it's like somebody I know for sure wouldn't watch the things that I do, I'll say, you know, I'm gonna guess you haven't watched, you know, thrillers like aimed toward women or something, like something like that. And, you know, and it's like, and then it's fine. Like it's total, it's totally fine. But if you're feeling like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be a terrible conversation. I dread all social functions because I have, and a lot of people feel that way, then I think you want to start thinking about like how do I identify, right? If I'm clenching around this thing and you feel it in your body right away, or you're nervous, or you're avoidant because you don't even want to have those conversations, then that's when you can visit that identity piece. That doesn't speak to everybody, like it's just my journey. Um, and lots of people are not there yet. Like they still want to identify in that way, whether it makes them feel bad or not. And so I look at it as like, I think you've got to just do you and go through your journey and arrive at it at whatever time you need to arrive at it. And certainly I'm not a therapist, so I can't so I can't unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Well, you did really good. This is my journaling prompt for tonight. Um I got work to do because I that was extremely helpful. Um, have so has it has it always been true for you? Did you ever go through that phase? Um, because a lot of the stuff I read for writers will tell you start saying you're a writer, start saying it right now. That will um so did you go through that phase even or have you kind of always had this pretty settled? That's my work. I'm this.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think because I've always been a storyteller in some capacity, I never really thought about it, right? Like I I mean, I I get there's a validity in what you're saying, and sometimes it's like, if we don't say it, who like is it who else is gonna say it? I I believe that for sure. Um I don't think, like, for example, if I'm going into a if I'm a new writer and I'm going into a pitch meeting, right, in Studio City, California. Okay, I'm going to Sony for a pitch meeting and I'm a new writer. I don't think you want to walk in there and be like, well, I'm not a screenwriter yet. I haven't really done anything, right? But I think that that's kind of a a normal way that you would approach a meeting. Like you would know you're not going to say that. So I think in those scenarios, you do want to like have that confidence, walk in the room as if you already have the job or as if you've already sold the pitch, right? They want to work with confident people. So you've got to walk in the room with that energy. Um, but as far as like you talking to other peers and like what you say to other people, I think that's kind of up to you. I think for some people it really helps to say, in all instances, I may this, you know? Um, yeah. And you don't have to say like, I'm a future, I'm an aspiring. Like, you don't have to say that. Like, I don't even worry about that. That's just say whatever you feel. Um, I often find that those kinds of things come up funny enough. This is gonna sound a little judgmental, but it's just an observ, something I've observed over many years working in the entertainment industry and also in book publishing. I see it a lot there. Um, a lot of these kind of conversations come up around in peer circles more than anything. Like I there have been many, many times in the entertainment world where I've had conversations with, we'll say their peers, but peep people who are uh actually they're never working writers. They they are like right, I'll still call them writers, but they haven't actually worked in the industry, right? Or been been paid for their work yet. And I've had lots of conversations with those people. And I would say more often than not, they'll want you to qualify. Like, well, you're a screenwriter. What do you mean? Oh, what have you written? Oh, that doesn't count. Like it's it's a very odd sort of thing happening. And I see that a lot in book publishing too, where it's like, oh, did you get a traditional deal? Oh, no, you self-published, and it wouldn't matter how many copies you sold or how many, um, how much money you've made. It's like, oh, but but it's not right, it's not real. That didn't count, right? And so I will tell you though, you'll never hear those conversations among people who are working and successful. Because it was early in my career as a screenwriter. I had, I did a movie with lifetime, which I'm very, very proud of, always proud of the stuff that I did. And I would hear from these folks who hadn't worked yet. They would say, Oh, I don't think you want to tell anybody you did that. Like, that doesn't really count. I'm like, what do you mean doesn't count? I got paid, I have something produced. I was very like, this doesn't make you don't make any sense to me. So I didn't let it get me down because it just truly, from a business standpoint, made absolutely no sense why they were saying that. And then I remember going and uh meeting with a showrunner. They were on like um Sons of Anarchy at the time or something. And I noticed that they had started writing these thrillers for Lifetime Network. I noticed in their IMDB page. So I was talking to him and I said, you know, how did you get over the hurdle of like people telling you that like those movies didn't count? He's like, What are you talking about? I'm like, okay, well, I and I told him, he said, Who's telling you this? And I said, it's and then I just like I had to think about it. And I said, Oh, I guess it's like people I'm in class with or whatever. And he's like, Yeah, those people aren't working. Like they don't, he's like, you don't don't listen to them. He said, he said, people in this industry want to make money if they see that you have made money, like you you've sold something, like you are you are a hot ticket. And I'm like, oh, right. And you know, I didn't need his validation for that, but I it it helped to put click the pieces together for me because I'm like, I didn't make sense why I was getting that feedback when I'm like, from a business standpoint, I'm a business woman, from a business standpoint, this makes no sense, right? Why I'm getting this feedback. Then he like clicked the puzzle piece into place that I don't know why they were saying that. I'm sure that was just something that was on them, not on me. However, you have to be real careful what you take in and who you're taking it in from, and really like listen to your gut. Because a lot, you know, a lot of these things that, especially in career, right, this is business. Like at the end of the day, it's business and bottom line. So, like if you're hearing these odd, strange things like this doesn't count or this isn't good enough, or this, this or that, right? Just really listen to your gut on that and realize maybe you don't need to listen to those people and and don't let that is gold.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

That is gold. I it kind of reminds me of the advice don't take advice from someone you don't take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from. Like those people weren't doing what you dreamed of doing, so they really didn't have a place to say if what you were doing wasn't enough. Um that's great. I'm so glad I brought that up and asked that question. You really helped me. I think my listeners should um listen because yeah, I might change how I how I introduce myself. Because even though I don't get that clinch, I'm very proud of you know what I have done or whatever. But what it is is I I got a tattoo when I turned 48. That um is like three things that just always center me because they are really what is most important in my life. And it's a it's a heart because I've had just a great love story and just so much love in my life with kids and and family and everything, and then a survivor um ribbon because I'm a sarcoma survivor, and then a W in kind of the type typewriter writing for writing. But that is there because it strengthens me and gives me joy. Writing does that for me. It's not there because it's my job. So I do think, I don't know, I might adjust. And I I love I love your advice on that, and I really appreciate it. I really want we've we're kind of hitting time, but I really want everybody to know about your podcast. Do you just have one podcast? Correct. Right now, just one. Okay, I was worried you might be one of those with multiple, and I was gonna to oversimplify you. But you have a podcast called Drip Trickle Flow Flood.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah, you dug good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Will you talk about I I know I I've been practicing because and I have listened to several episodes. Will you tell everyone how you started it and what its gist is?

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah. So a friend of mine, this is drip, trickle, flow, flood is is his concept. Uh, and it's really about just bringing in multiple income streams, and that's how you can secure the future, the freedom that you want, which I fully believe in. As you know, I do lots of things. So I am never reliant on one income stream. I might be a storyteller, but I have lots of different income streams that are feeding that and fueling that, um, and investments outside of that, of course, too. So one of my goals was um for this year was to have more, and last year too, I guess, because we started it a year ago, um, was to have more conversations about money. I had a lot of blocks about money in certain times in my life, you know, different stories that I would tell myself about money. And I feel that it's very important that we are having open conversations about money, particularly for women and those in marginalized populations, because I feel like that's happening even less. So it's just I wanted to, because I was doing it more, I wanted to emulate it publicly and just show, like, look, I'm out here having these conversations. Hopefully, we can inspire one person. And, you know, I know I know it's been more than one person at this point, but it's like, you know, even one person to have those conversations in their life too. And that's meaningful because we then we can all build wealth and have the freedom and the future that we want. So that's why we started it. Um, we are writing a book together as well. And so we just thought we would do the podcast. Actually, the book was first, um, but we just decided to do the podcast as a way to put out topics, get to talk to listeners, see what people liked and what they didn't like or what they were confused by or nervous about, and then allow that to inform the book rather than like operating in a silo and like not just just writing from like our perspective. I felt like that was really important, um, particularly because my podcast partner is like a lifelong investor and has, you know, a much different, he's definitely more of the expert in this area than me. And so I wanted to make sure that we're not like bringing stuff that's gonna feel too like far out there for folks, if that makes sense. Like I wanted to meet people where they are. And so, in order to do that, um, we, you know, talked together and decided, yeah, like let's let's hear from people and what they want rather than us assuming we know what they want. Uh, so we made that decision together, and then that's where we are now. And it's really, it's really a fun podcast. It's a lot of fun to talk about money and it does in a hopefully a relaxed way.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

And uh relaxed, but so practical. I heard uh the episode about watching for scams.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

And literally the next day was at lunch with a friend whose coworker had just been completely robbed of all her savings because of a plain old email. You're in danger, we'll we'll fix it for you. And it was kind of someone like I get a lot of you know security training uh through through my work. I see it all the time, and so I've become more appropriately suspicious. And that's what you guys talked about on that episode is some people have no suspicion. There's so um no guile and they just don't imagine what's happening. And um, so being informed is so good. And then the last episode I listened to, I think it's the most recent one fast money, slow dreams. Oh girl, you are speaking, you guys are speaking my language. I'm like, that's what I'm doing. I'm fundraising for the dreams.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Tackle the fast money, fund, slow dreams. That was funny because the both of us were like tripping over those words um when we came up with that phrase and we're like, we can't even say this, but we but we went with it. Fast so fast say it again. Fast money funds, slow dreams. Perfect. I did. I missed the word funds. No, you did it right. You did it right. Like you no, you said it right. It was, and I love the idea of it because it's one of those things where I all hear, because I talk to a lot of creatives, what I would call creatives, um, and they feel a lot of shame around having like a day job or uh, you know, nine to five, or like things that like are and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, first of all, it's very smart to do that. Like you like, look, we live in a tough economy. We've gotta all like make a living, right? So there's never do no shame around how you earn a living, like for anyone. Um, as long as it's not harming anybody, of course. But I'll just throw that out there. But um, but no shame. Like we shouldn't be shaming around how people earn a living anyway. It's I no, no, no, let's not do that. But there really is no shame around like the income that you're bringing in to fund maybe uh what we would call slow dreams. And slow dreams just means like something that's going to take a little bit longer time and effort or fundraising, whatever it is to make it to make that happen. Like we just had a hot sauce company on, and like they like again, that's a long road. Like to be a consumer package good company, that's a long road to make your dream happen because it's extremely expensive and extremely tough to get products on shelves. So we were talking about that. It's like he worked a day job for four or five years of that dream, right? Because it's like that's what they needed to do. And instead of feeling like shame for that, or I'm not a real, you know, entrepreneur because I'm doing that. It was like, no, like you've got to get funding from somewhere, right? That's if you're gonna be an entrepreneur, you've got to get funding from somewhere. So where is that funding gonna come from? Is it a loan? Is it savings? Is it an investor? Is it a day job? Is it multiple part-time jobs? It does there shouldn't be shame for any of those paths. If you're going to own a business, you need investment, and that's just the end of the road. And in my opinion, I think having a day job is like the best thing you can do because there's some security to, you know, as long as you're bringing that income in, you're investing it how you want to invest it, that that leads to that dream. And there's also lots of security and health insurance and other things that are important, right? In this society. So that's my opinion on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

I think it's smart. Beautiful opinion. I'm so grateful for that opinion. Um, so I like to end with a recommendation or just you getting the last word. It's called it worked for me. And it's just something big or small that um worked for you once, like an aha moment, or it regularly helps you find more purpose or meaning in life.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

Yeah, I think um what worked for me is getting putting myself in a position where I could get a lot of no's or a lot of rejections. And doing that, I mean, I did it very early in life because I was an actor as a as a kid. So I was, you know, hearing that a lot. But like that also could apply to like athletes, right? Where you're not gonna make every shot that you try, right? Michael Jordan's not isn't dunking every every shot either. Um, so you're gonna lose games, right? Things like that. So don't feel like it has to be necessarily like a sales position or or you have to be an actor or something like that. Think about like, where can you be? This sounds terrible, but it's like, where can you be in a position of losing and losing regularly? Um, like go play pickleball, right? And go lose some games. Like it, like anything where, or um, another way you can think about it is like, where can you be a beginner, a total beginner, where you're gonna be the worst one in the room, right? That's a really good muscle to flex, to have to be like, I do not know what's going on, I everyone else does, and I do not go to dance class if you don't know how to dance, right? That's a great place to go. Uh, try an instrument for the first time, like so many different things. But and it's and it will help so much because if you are somebody who struggles with failure and rejection or getting no, which is very normal, right, to do. Um, if you start to introduce other things into your life where it's like, oh, I I went, I'm, I'm trying to learn guitar and I failed again. It was terrible again in my lesson. Or I went to dance class and and tripped over my feet again and couldn't get the moves and stood in the back and watched, you know, all these other people do it and I couldn't do it. That will flex that muscle in like a very low stakes way, right? There's no stakes when you're like going to Zumba or something, or go, you know, going to like a local dance class or playing a pit playing, uh joining a pickleball game or something. There's no stakes there, right? So you can remove the stakes and fail, fail, lose, get rejected, get no, all those things, and start to just flex that muscle. And then when it's happening in whatever your pursuit is, which here it's probably like people starting a business or wanting to become a writer or something, something like that, or an artist of some sort. So where you are going to face lots of no's and rejection along along the way, like it won't feel as big of a pang because you're used to it. It's like, eh, whatever. I just lost 12 pickleball games. I played 12 pickleball games and I lost all 12. Like it just, you know, you just like shrug and move on with your day. And that starts to to bleed into other parts of your life in a really seamless way. So the more you can flop, the better. Just be a flop. I should write a post about that. Like you be in your flop era because it's true. If you can, I always try to do something in my life that I'm terrible at that I'm gonna like fail and flop. Right now it's tennis. I we were joking, like, I wasn't even playing tennis. On a tennis court. Like we're playing in a parking lot. And now, like, we finally went to a tennis court on Sunday. My husband is a high performance tennis coach, right? So he knows what he's doing. We went to the court and I was laughing. I'm like, I'm on the court. I was like, look at me. And you know, it's so silly. And I'm smacking, I'm doing terrible, and balls are flying in other people's courts who do know what they're doing. But you know what? Oh well. I mean, oh well.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

This is brilliant. I this is brilliant. I love it so much. I'm going to uh restart trying to learn the shuffle dance. Shuffle dance on Instagram. I'm like, I'm just gonna try that. And it's real hard. Yeah. It's real hard to look like they do, but they all say, do it slow, slow, slow, slow, slow, slow until you can pick it up. And um, that's what I'm gonna do because I run screaming from discomfort, Melissa. And I'm gonna try to stop that because that's another, yep, that's another teaching in um design your life type studies is you gotta kind of go towards discomfort. So, but I love your perspective on it that it just makes you kind of unphazable.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Oh, yeah, you'll be unflappable tot totally because it's just moving on. You remove this, you take the stakes away.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

Melissa, I can't thank you enough. You were a dream guest for me. When you said yes, I celebrated that night. That was my celebration. Melissa said yes to be on the podcast. And it was an absolutely delightful discussion, just like everything I ever hear from you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This was so fun. I'm so glad.