Why Your Calling Might Not Be About a Job with Mike Bohon

In today's episode, Serenity's guest is her fifth-grade crush (now husband), Mike Bohon. (She calls him Michael.) Mike describes his job as a risk consultant working mainly in the transportation industry. Mike finds meaning in his work, which he explains, but he defines his calling as something beyond the job. In this episode, Mike and Serenity talk work, parenting, jobs versus careers, finding meaning at work, and work-life harmony. 

Find Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-bohon-cds-85499b62/

I Do This For a Living is independently produced. 

@serenitylive

Transcript

Speaker 0:03

Welcome to I Do This For a Living, a show that questions everything about work culture and asks how we can give as much time and energy to the things that matter as we do to the things that sometimes the things that matter pay, and we'll talk about that. I'm Serenity Bohon, a writer and more recently a podcaster, for which I have to give a big shout out to my guest today. He is my husband, Michael Bohon. He's had a front seat to my day job and creative angst since my very first job. We've talked about work and creativity a lot over the years, and today we're gonna do it here. So first we need to meet you. I like to let the guests introduce themselves.

Speaker 1 0:45

Well, first of all, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 0:47

You're welcome.

Speaker 1 0:48

Miss Serenity Bohon. I think the and I've actually done this to people before, and I did this in front of a group of folks that I was I was speaking at a conference down in Dallas, Texas. And I told that group that if they really wanted to get to know me, they needed to go talk to my kids. And that probably is could be a risky, risky little thing sometimes. But uh I feel like um if you really want to get to know somebody, talk to the people that they spend the most time with and see what those people feel about that person um by living life with them. And I think you'll get to know them more than you know, somebody just saying, Hey, my name's Mike Bohan, and this is, you know, this is my bio. Well, talk to the people I live with, and I think they're gonna give you a better picture of who I am than I even would trying to give you a bullet pointed list.

Speaker 1:46

So what do you think they would say about you?

Speaker 1 1:48

Uh I don't know. I would like to hear that. It would be cool. I think everybody should hear that. I think everybody should hear what the people that they are closest to and the people that love them. I think they need to hear what how those people would introduce them. I think that'd be cool. I think I I mean, obviously you could speak for yourself, but I think I think our boys would probably say things like, Dad taught us right from wrong, uh, he stood up for the things that were right, he held us accountable, um, you know, he d he loved to spend time with us doing the things that we loved. So he was was willing to spend time with people doing the things they loved to be with that person. I I think they would say things like that, even though a lot of the things we did I like doing too, but do you think they would even mention your job? No. No.

Speaker 2:40

Interesting.

Speaker 1 2:41

No, they would I I would say with with almost 100% certainty they probably wouldn't. Because I didn't talk about that's not what I talked about with the kids. I talked about life lessons, I talked about how to be a man, how to how to treat people, things like that. I didn't really talk about, hey, this is what I do for a living, this is what I do to make money. So I I wouldn't fault them for not talking about that or really even knowing exactly what I do, because that wasn't the important parts of life to me that I needed to talk to them about.

Speaker 3:20

I just have a fabulous idea, is I'm gonna go to your boys after this and get them to introduce you and they'll weave that in to the podcast and we'll see what they say. Three boys, by the way. Everyone is what we're talking about here. We share them together. Okay, let's do a segment called billable hours. What do you do for a living?

Speaker 1 3:40

I am a risk consultant for an insurance broker, and I work with our clients in the safety realm to help them stay in compliance with federal and state regulations, their drivers, their company. There's there's regulations that they have to be in compliance with that are safety regulations. So I help them navigate those areas. I help with risk management loss control. Uh, because what I do, we're in the transportation market. The company that I work for, our local office, we do a little bit of work in the ag world as well, but I'm I'm primarily in the transportation market. So I'm working directly with clients and I'm trying to help them be as safe as they can be, have as few claims as possible, and help them build their company in a successful way uh that's just that's safe and and and profitable as it can be.

Speaker 4:36

How did you get there?

Speaker 1 4:37

Huh. That's a that is a interesting, kind of a long and windy road. And honestly, I'll give you credit for this because I've been in this, this industry that I'm in and doing what I'm doing for almost 25 years. And it started with the first job I had that would have got me into this career. I was actually with the Missouri DOT as an enforcement investigator. And that job posting or listing, whatever you want to call it, you found it and you said, hey, what about this job? And uh so I applied for it. And that started started this journey down this path. So good or bad, I'll say I'll either give you credit or I'll blame you for what I do today. I think I say I give you credit because it's been a it's it's been a good ride for me. I I've I've worked with with a lot of different people and in several different companies and um both in the public and private sector, and where I'm at today is is in an extremely good spot. But it started in the early 2000s with me getting hired as a as an investigator.

Speaker 5:52

If someone listening thinks that sounds kind of cool, what would you tell them had to be true about you when you applied for that job?

Speaker 1 6:01

If somebody thinks that path sounds cool.

Speaker 6:04

Yeah. They want when you applied for that job, what had to be true? I think What did they require of you?

Speaker 1 6:09

For just the requirements to get the job, obviously college degree.

Speaker 6:13

In a specific thing?

Speaker 1 6:15

I mean, they were my degree was in criminal justice. So they were looking for a certain type of person uh that had a certain background or a certain college degree, that kind of thing. But it uh the folks that that I worked with that that got hired with me, they backgrounds were pretty diverse. But we all had that common connection of criminal justice or previous law enforcement, things like that. So I think if because I didn't know where you were going with that at first, because you said what requirements, but to me, yeah, there was a requirement there that I had to have a college degree to get that job. But the requirement internally that I had to have was I did like to be open to take that step. Because I wasn't looking for that. I didn't, I'll be honest, when I got that job, day one, I walked into it. I had no idea what those people did. And I got handed a regulation book that was about three inches thick and said, here, start reading up on this. And I had no idea what they did, but I took that first step and started that process of figuring out what we did here. And I got good at that. And I networked all the way through that. And every step I took in my career was like, okay, there's an opening here. Do I take it? Don't I take it? I stepped through that opening and figure that out. And every step, every door I step through felt like it was a little bit easier because I I had of all the the history that I had in the industry that I'm in.

Speaker 7:50

Why are three things you do almost every day at your job?

Speaker 1 7:55

So for for work, three things that I do every day just as part of a nor normal course of business, this is what I do. Um I the first thing I would say is whether they're reaching out to me or I'm reaching out to them, I am talking with our clients every day. There's some things that that are structured conversations, but a lot of times in the work that I do, when I get called from a client, it's um it's a stressful situation that they're in and they need help right away. So that's one thing that I do. I'm helping clients problem solve and try to work through some stressful situations, whether it's they've had a vehicle accident or an injury at a location or something like that. So I'm I'm helping helping with that. Another thing that I'm doing is traveling a lot. And I don't do that every day, but I'm on the road a lot. I work with a great team of guys, office our safety guys, and our our producers do as well, but our safety guys, we're on the road every week for sure. And we try to protect our hometown a little bit, but uh, but that's something I'm doing almost every day as I'm traveling somewhere because we're going to see our clients in a in a face-to-face manner. So um I I like doing that, uh, but at the same time, it's kind of a double-edged sword. I like the travel. I like to see people, I like to visit people face to face. Um, but that means nights in hotels and nights in cities away from home, away from you, away from when the kids were younger and they were still at the still at the house. Um, it was time away from kids. So um that's a challenge, but it's something that, you know, that I've done for what the last 15 years and just figured it out, figured it out, figured out a way to make that work and and uh and not miss too much of real life. And the third thing, this is tough because my days are never the same.

Speaker 9:50

I know.

Speaker 1 9:50

I would say the last thing I would do every day, and I kind of alluded to this a minute ago with what we help our clients with. There's a lot of different governmental agencies that have oversight of our clients, and I'm in those regulations every day. So whether that's the books that I carry or the electronic code of federal regulations that I dig into to help these folks walk through regulations, I'm in those probably every day to either answer a question or to do some research on something I'm working on.

Speaker 10:23

So excellent. Um I happen to know you're definitely gonna be able to answer this. So I'm gonna ask it, what is something about your work that matters?

Speaker 1 10:34

Well, if I'll put this in a way where it it's like I hate to put too much importance on what I do because it's in one respect, uh uh, you know, I don't want to sound arrogant like I am I'm out there, I'm I've got a cape on and I'm saving lives. But if I didn't believe that what I do made a difference to make our roadways safer, to have safer drivers, to have safer companies out there that are operating commercial vehicles, I don't think I would do what I'm doing. I I think I can get up every day and say, okay, what I'm gonna do today, even though when I'm in it, when I'm in the weeds or I'm in a situation, I'm in a problem, whatever, I can't see it at the moment. At the end of the day, I hope I can look back and see what I did that day and say, all right, I helped someone be more successful, be a safer company. You know, it's I used to tell people all the time, and I and I still do when I when I speak to groups at companies, whether it's professional drivers or their leadership team or whatever, I say the the companies that we insure are operating commercial motor vehicles out on the road with my family, with my wife, with my kids, with my parents, my brother and his family, you know, your family and the things that I'm doing, I'm helping to keep them safe on the road with the people that I work with. So I feel like that's it's something that's hard to keep in the forefront of your mind because everybody gets into the grind. I think everybody feels that where it's like, you know, you just have a tough day, or maybe you have a tough week, or maybe a tough month. I don't know. And it's hard to keep that focus, but in the end, I think that's something that's that's important.

Speaker 12:15

So do you think everyone can find that about their job, or does is it kind of unique to you and your work that you're able to find that kind of meaning?

Speaker 1 12:27

I think everybody can find something like that in their job because I I have this feeling since your producer gave me some insight into some of the questions I was gonna be asked today. I don't want to steal your thunder and go too far down this trail. But to me, the I think everybody can find purpose in what they do and where they're at. I think that's a I think that's an important part of what we should do as just people is where we're at in that moment, find purpose in that, find a reason for for why you're there. Um and again, it's not always easy to do. It's tough to do that because I know a lot of us find ourselves in situations that are unpleasant when it comes to the to the work world and the jobs we're in. Uh I've been pretty blessed through the years that I don't really have have that situation at all. So I don't have those feelings like I really gotta find my purpose in this or I can't do this anymore. But I feel like we can all do that.

Speaker 13:36

You're right. That led very well into another segment that we're going to talk about. Um, my next question for you is do you believe in a calling?

Speaker 1 13:48

Okay. So that was that was where I wanted to go. That was um because I knew you were wanting to talk about this, and um, I I feel like I've probably got a different perspective than than some folks do. But I feel like, and I know I don't want to get too spiritual or anything like that, but this is what I feel about callings, and this is a podcast about work and jobs and things like that. But if we're gonna talk about callings, this is what I believe. I believe that callings are tied to people and relationships. So when you find yourself in a position, whether you want to say, God put me here, or I just applied and I needed a job and I needed to get there or, you know, do something to make some money, wherever you find yourself, I feel like God puts a calling on you. And it doesn't necessarily matter where you're at, it's who he's called you to, the people he's called you to be around and that kind of thing. So that's what I truly believe. Because I've speaking of what our boys would say about me, I've talked to the boys about this since they were little. I feel like our callings are number one, when I was born, I was called to be a son. Just because I got a mom and dad, and now I'm a son. I had an older brother, so I was automatically called to be a brother. I got a little older, you and I met, we got married, I was called to be a husband. We decided we were gonna have a family, I was called to be a dad, which to me I feel like I mean, you are the most important thing to me in this world. But that calling of being a dad was something that was is still very important to me. And now we're at the stage where I'm called to be a grandpa. I've got one little granddaughter and another grandbaby on the way. We don't know if it's gonna be a grandson or a granddaughter, but so those are the as I walk through life, those are the things I feel like God has called me to, to, to be, to really do. Did he call me to be a transportation risk consultant for a large insurance broker? Uh yeah, he probably opened those doors to put me there, but I don't think that's my calling. I think the calling is the people that I know, the people that I am connected to, and the relationships that I have. And I hope, you know, I because I've talked to some people, and it's and there's some professions in this world where I think people say, well, it's got it, that's a calling to do that. You better be serious about it. And I know our sons have heard that from other people. I and I not from necessarily from me, but it's like, well, you better be sure this is what you want to do in life because it's really a calling. And to me, I think that's a job. The calling is what are you gonna do when you get there? How are you gonna influence the people that you meet? How are you gonna build relationships? And I feel like that's the calling. The job is like me as a guy, I look at it like, you know, one of the things that that I mentioned that I'm called to be is a husband and a father. Well, with that goes, I need to go get a job and make money and provide for my family. It doesn't really matter if I am a risk consultant, an investigator, whatever I'm doing, that's part of supporting the calling that I had of being a a husband and and a father. So that's my take on it.

Speaker 17:19

I I love that take. I've heard you say that before about calling is how we're supposed to be rather than what we're supposed to be. But I hadn't really heard you say it that way before, where God may actually put us in specific jobs, but it's still not that the job is our calling, it's who we're supposed to be in it. So for me, who've had a little more trouble finding meaning sometimes in the work I'm doing for a job, I can tell myself, was I the person I was called to be in this job today?

Speaker 1 17:50

Again, it was like I said, that's and that's hard to do sometimes because not every day do you feel like, you know, in a vacuum in a perfect world, it's like I can hang on to that feeling, those thoughts of I, you know, I'm here, I'm making a difference. But life's messy, jobs are messy, but stuff's hard, and it's tough to hang on to those. That's why it's it's good to get get some perspective every now and then. I think it's it's good. Vacations are good, time away is good, even if it's just an evening, whatever. I mean, getting that perspective I think is important.

Speaker 18:28

And conversations like this.

Speaker 1 18:30

Yeah.

Speaker 18:30

Okay. Do you see a difference between a job and a career? I am gonna caveat, but I'm going to kind of give context to this because I I feel you have more of a career. You entered an industry, you become a bit of an expert in it. Jobs have come to you because people knew who you were in your industry. Whereas I feel more I have had jobs. I mean, I kind of have switched industries, and I've typically had to look from my own way into a new job. When I so do you see a difference between a job and a career? Do you feel you have a career?

Speaker 1 19:06

Yeah, I think so. I I do feel like I have a career. Um and it's um I think there's different things that go into that longevity. You know, I've I've really I I've been like I said, I've been doing this almost 25 years, and I've I've worked for a state agency and then two private companies in that time period. So I haven't changed jobs a lot, but every time I changed, those jobs were intertwined. And especially the last change I made, they were very intertwined. Had there were some companies that I work with clients that we have didn't change. I was going to meet some of the same people, that kind of stuff. So I think that's part of it. You, you know, as you as you move down the road of your work, adult work life, when you make a job change, is it st is it still in that same field? I think if you keep going down that and they're still related and there's some longevity there, I think that's when you say, Yeah, I've got a career. But you know, I know people that are very successful in life and they they jump from one industry to the other or one type of job to the other, and they're very successful. And then he's like, well, is that a career? Well, it's I don't know. It's good point.

Speaker 20:14

It's hard to tell. Would you say you really intentionally stayed on the same quote unquote ladder? Like I've definitely jumped ladders.

Speaker 1 20:23

Yeah, I have. I I think I was I've been pretty intentional with that.

Speaker 20:28

Do you see any cons to that choice to stay on the same?

Speaker 1 20:33

It's tough to know. Yeah, true.

Speaker 20:34

It's kind of how could you know if you don't know the other thing?

Speaker 1 20:37

It's it's kind of like when I said earlier that I got into this industry without knowing anything about it. I didn't know that aspect of it when I got into it. Now it's all I know because that's all I've ever done. And I've built this network, I've built relationships, feel like I'm pretty good at what I do. I don't know if that like would I what if I were to just say, I'm, you know, I'm done doing what I'm doing. I'm gonna change, I'm gonna get out of this industry, I'm gonna do something completely different. Would I enjoy it? Would I be successful? I have no idea. I'd like to think I could figure it out. But but I'm at the point in life where I've made the decisions I've made to be in the industry that I make because I feel like I've become part of that. And I feel like that's where I where I belong. So I haven't really looked to get out of it.

Speaker 21:26

Okay, let's uh new segment. Work-life balance. I feel like we're pretty good at it, you and me. But I have worried about it over the years, especially for myself, because work often felt like all I did. A lot of what I did. What are some things you did outside of work that you're glad you made time for?

Speaker 1 21:47

Well, through the years, I would say when I started traveling for my job, some of the things that I made time to do was that was when our boys were younger. They were doing Sports. And I didn't miss that stuff. I made it work. If I was traveling and I was in another city and there was a football game on Friday night, I was not going to miss that football game or there was a basketball game that week. I was going to get back. So I had the independence and the freedom to be able to do that and make sure I was enjoying that and watched the boys grow up and do what they love to do. Now that meant some long hours when I was on the road. And uh it, I mean, we're talking work-life balance. I mean, there were some nights I remember I always had the mindset, which I don't do it as much now, but my previous job, I always had the mindset of if I'm on the road and I'm in a hotel, I'm just gonna work. It's not I didn't go out for dinner at night. I didn't go do fun stuff. It's like I went and did my work through the day and I went back to the hotel room. I had to write up reports, and I might write reports till midnight just to get stuff done. So when I got home, I didn't have all that stuff waiting on me. I could just go to that football game and not think about it or whatever. So that was one of the things early on when I started traveling that I did to kind of protect that work-life balance. Um, over the last couple of years, I started golfing, which I never in a million years thought I would be a golfer. Ever. Never thought I would do it. I I now realize how how wrong I was because I absolutely love it. Um I've only been doing it a couple of years, but I give it a really good group of friends that that I like to golf with. And that has become my time where I can shed the worries of work. Like if I'm out there um, you know, on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon or something like that, I can truly shut my brain off the work side of my brain and not think about it. And that's been it's been a really good thing for me.

Speaker 23:45

Yeah, you actually have another name for it. Right?

Speaker 1 23:50

Do I?

Speaker 23:51

Therapy?

Speaker 1 23:52

Oh.

Speaker 23:53

You have sometimes got the therapy.

Speaker 1 23:55

It does feel like that sometimes. And part of that is um I'm I'm not the most social person in the world. I know our group that I work with, we talk about the difference between introverts and extroverts. Our our guys that sell insurance, they are big-time extroverts. It makes them very successful at what they do. But a lot of us safety guys were introverts. So I'm not the most social person in the world. But part of that aspect of me getting into golf that I enjoy is I I get to spend some time with some guys that we just we all just let down and have fun and and kind of cut up a little bit with each other. I do enjoy the sport. I've really gotten into it where I would go golf by myself, but I never do. So I think there's a little bit of a social aspect there, but a little bit of it's outside, it's physical. It just helps me let loose a little bit. It's a little bit like therapy.

Speaker 24:50

Totally. I had I wrote down two other things that I recall that you made time for. There was a season in our lives when you were a high school football coach.

Speaker 1 24:59

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 25:01

Which was that a year, two years?

Speaker 1 25:03

It was, and that was an interesting time that I tried to do that because that was when I was switching jobs.

Speaker 25:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1 25:10

So I went uh um at the high school level the next year, because I through that year I switched jobs and I knew I was gonna be on the road a lot. And I told him, I said, I'm not, I won't even sign a contract, I'll just volunteer my time. So I went to the junior high level because I had a good friend that I went to high school with that was coaching the junior high team. So I went down and helped them out. They didn't need my help at all. They had enough people, and but they it was just they said, Yeah, just come on, you can you can help. So yeah, I had a little stint coaching there, which is fun. I I love uh I love football and I I love that coaching aspect of it. I coached all the boys when they were younger coming up through fifth and sixth grade football and and some of them in seventh and eighth grade football. But uh yeah, that was that was a a fun time in life.

Speaker 25:58

Yeah, I love that about you. And then um now I'd say we've we make a lot we make more time for travel than we used to.

Speaker 1 26:06

Yeah. And that's been cool over the last, I don't know, over the last several years. Because we always when the kids were younger, it was like, why would we go anywhere without our kids?

Speaker 26:18

Totally.

Speaker 1 26:18

We always, you know, we we never took vacations without the kids. We didn't go to movies without them. We didn't do anything.

Speaker 26:24

No, we didn't.

Speaker 1 26:25

But now it's like it's kind of fun that like we had some friends and you know, their daughter got married in another country and we were just like, yeah, let's go. And it was a great it was a great trip. It was a short trip, but just kind of a little fly down and have some wedding fun and fly back. But uh yeah, I think we may we've we've done a nice job of making some more time for that. Investing in the experiences.

Speaker 26:49

Exactly.

Speaker 1 26:50

Um I mean, you know me. I I need the stuff. I like the stuff, but that should be one of my questions. But but experiences are are good to invest into.

Speaker 27:00

Um yeah, I was gonna do a segment with us called Potato Potato, where we talk about some of our differences, and that is I would say a difference of ours, maybe, is through the years. Would this be true? I feel like you had a sense of the job is to support the lifestyle you want. And for you, some some of that is stuff. You do, you love some stuff, and now the golfing, what your hobbies, you want to support your hobbies, things like that. And me, I was kind of more wanting to be a starving artist, I thought at least. But I would say my philosophy has evolved a bit because the more we were able to erase some of the money worries because stability and just it makes a difference in everything. And so I have sort of come around. I don't really want to be a starving artist anymore. I want to TV. Yeah. Um, so I've evolved in that way.

Speaker 1 27:55

Um Well, I think it's probably good to have a little balance there. I we probably balance each other out pretty well. There's some times when I I like toys and you know, if I sometimes that you bring me back, kind of center me a little bit because I'm whether it's a new golf cart or uh listeners, I never ever say no to anything he wants to buy. No, you know. You've never you've never been been that way. I just I feel like for me, you're 100% right. I feel like for me it's like I'm gonna work hard, but I'm gonna enjoy the fruits of my labor and I'm gonna have the things I like. And I think maybe sometimes you're like, I don't want to buy anything because I don't want to be tied to this thing that makes sense. You know?

Speaker 28:42

That's me. That's so true. Um, you mentioned balance, and I wanted to say I heard a speaker one time say that we're never gonna have balance. Things will not be even, how much you work, how much you play, etc. But what you're seeking is harmony. And so I think that season where you were able to be a high school football coach, your work life balance or your your job versus your fun might have been pretty even. You spent a lot of time devoted to that team and everything. And then very like you said, you entered a job change where you were gonna have to travel quite a bit for work. And it it's this see-sawed a bit. And you did have to give more to the job, maybe, than you had before, but you still had harmony, I think. And especially the way you made sure to be there for the boys, our boys for their games and stuff. Um, let's talk to our boys for a second. What would you say to them about work?

Speaker 1 29:38

Well, that's interesting because we've got two that are getting ready to have some pretty big life changes coming up here pretty soon. And I feel like I've done this, probably had these conversations, but it's it kind of goes back to what we were talking about before in that people matter. People are the important parts, and the people that matter most are the ones that they're gonna live with. So their wives, their kids, because they're both gonna be busy. I've been busy, you've been busy. It's not just I'm not saying it's just the dads and the husbands. I'm saying everybody that's working out there, we get busy. And we have to remember that the folks that we that are the most important to us, the closest to us, that we live life with, they should be first. And there's gonna be times when I know I told you I I I I've traveled a lot over the years, didn't miss a lot, but there were things I missed, and I and I hated that. And I understand that's gonna happen, and I don't think anybody should beat themselves up about that. But I think they need to focus on making sure that their spouse is healthy, their kids are healthy, and that they're doing everything they can to make sure that they've got a family that's in a good spot. And I know that's kind of not the question you ask is what would you tell them about work? But to me, it's like go do your thing, but make sure you're not dropping the ball when it comes to your family. Because to me, that's the most important part of life is your family. And then go hit the ground running and work hard. It's one of the things that um probably both these boys, there are the older boys that we're talking about that have families. So we've got three boys. The older two are married and and have started their families, the youngest one hasn't yet. But those older two, I remember telling them do the things now that the other folks that are your age aren't willing to do, and you will be far ahead in life. And I don't think that ever ends. It's like even me sitting here right now is like I I look at, you know, in in my job world, competitors, things like that, and it's like, if I, if I'll work hard and do the things that I need to do, it's it there's gonna be there's gonna be fruit from that. But for them just starting out, it's like just work hard, get in there, get established, and there'll be a time for them where um where maybe life's not so crazy. And I I've I mean I can see that for both of them, and I hope that's I hope that's the case.

Speaker 32:12

So a potato potato thing, something I would tell my boys about work, even those two who are on very decided career paths. They went to professional school, they're both gonna graduate on the same day in May from law school and medical school. I would still tell them don't be afraid to quit things. I've felt that always in their lives, not in the middle, not poorly, but just don't be afraid to switch paths if necessary, even in their very dedicated roles. I think they probably don't even feel concerned that that could ever happen. But it could. There's other possibilities out there and never be afraid. But that's always been my message. Don't be afraid to quit things. But I've really never I've wanted to quit lots of things that I didn't because I kind of have to stick things out. But I would now say like starting this podcast is so fun for me because instead of focusing on something that maybe wasn't perfectly gelling for me, but I still need it in my life, I've added this thing. So it's not just quit things and switch. It's make sure you add and give attention to the things that bring you joy, that mean the most to you, that make you that do give you that sense of meaning and purpose. So that makes me just want to ask you. Let's just talk about me for for a while. What you were a huge encourager for me to do this podcast. I mean, you had kind of had to talk me off the ledge many times because I wanted to do it, but I was very scared to do it. And I didn't know if it made any sense to do it. What made you continue to encourage me to do it?

Speaker 1 33:43

You specifically, I I just feel like it it was I could tell it was something you really wanted to do. And I think it was just mustering you mustering up the courage to do it. And I've I mean, we've been married what almost Almost 29 years. Is this year 29?

Speaker 34:04

I think so, yeah.

Speaker 1 34:05

Yeah. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was unsure on that. So we've been married a long time. We've known each other a lot longer than that. And so everything you've ever done in life, you've been extremely good at. You're just I think you could do anything you wanted to do. Truly. I think you could have been a neurosurgeon. I think you could have been a I mean, whatever you wanted to do, I you you would have been successful at it. So when I saw you struggling, pulling the trigger on this podcast, I'm like, honey, you don't you don't realize how this is gonna be easy for you and you're gonna enjoy this. It's gonna be a good thing. So that's for you, that's what I saw, is just something that you just had a little bit of a step that uh you needed to take, and and I think it's you'll just be able to run with it now and and it's gonna be great. And it's you talked about that a little bit ago where you it's like don't be afraid to quit things, you know, try something new on that stuff. And I think for me, it's that is the a potato potato thing for us because I'm I'm more of the just stay the course. Just stay the course, just grind it out. But I think it's an evolution of things. It's like even even with this podcast, as you go through life, it's like, well, I'm doing this, but I'm I'm gonna add this to it, or I'm gonna change this. So it's not like I guess it's I guess it's the work part of it. It's like we're always gonna be doing something. We're just gonna evolve into doing something. It's not like I'm gonna quit. To me, that's like a negative. I don't like the work.

Speaker 35:29

I don't like quitting stuff.

Speaker 1 35:30

But it's an evolution. It's like, okay, no, I'm gonna do something. Life's taking this turn, and I'm gonna, you know, life's gonna evolve into and this is what it's gonna look like now. And there's still this trail of what I had. So yeah, I think that but that's just my I don't know, mindset, my background. I don't like quitting stuff. Even the jobs I've left. I hated it. I didn't want to do it. I've never left the job.

Speaker 35:51

That's my favorite thing.

Speaker 1 35:53

I've never left the job and been happy about it. Because I like the people I work with before. Not that not that I didn't love the job I was going to, but I hated leaving the people that I was working with. I really did. I mean, I every every step I've taken, whether it was with the state, the company I was with before the one I'm at now, and the one I'm at now, it's like every time I I took a step, it was like the hardest thing in the world. And I think that goes back to what I was talking about before where it's like it's not the job. Right, exactly. The calling is the people. Right. And it's tough to leave people that mean something to you.

Speaker 36:24

Yeah. And that you've built into those relationships. You've worked you worked at them.

Speaker 1 36:29

Yeah.

Speaker 36:30

Yeah. I like to let my guests have the last word by offering a little something I like to call it worked for me. Throughout, you've talked about what you believe to be the most important things in life, the things that matter the most. You also talked about the messiness of life and work and how it can be hard to keep those things in the forefront. What is something you do that helps with that?

Speaker 1 36:59

Well, that's a good question.

Speaker 37:00

Thank you. I do this for a living.

Speaker 1 37:04

Um I would say it's not necessarily one thing that I do, um, an activity or something like that, but it's it's it's something that a lot of my activities have in common. There's a common thread to this, and that is as a classic introvert, when I get away and I'm by myself, I find myself recharging, gaining perspective, understanding where I'm at in life, you know, everything that I'm going through as a as a husband, as a father, as an employee, it helps me gain perspective on on where I'm at, what I'm doing, and how I'm how I'm living life. Um, you know, when we were first married and uh the kids were younger, all that stuff, I would hunt a lot. And it was, I was in the woods by myself a lot. Um and I I think there's a lot of people out there that would think I would be crazy to go sit in the woods by yourself for hours and hours and hours. But I would find myself recharging and and gaining that perspective during that time. And I do that now in other ways. I've got, I've gained some hobbies. I work out more now. Well, that workout that I do or try to do every day. Yeah, there may be other people in the gym, there may be other people around, all this stuff, but I put those AirPods in, I can't hear anything. It's me and the workout. And I'm doing the same thing. I'm trying to gain that perspective and I'm I'm recharging there. Um, you know, I'd mentioned earlier that I golf, and that's something that I rarely do by myself, but there are times when I'll go out and I'll do that by myself. So that common thread of me just individually as somebody that needs to just have some downtime just by themselves is really important for me to not only gain perspective of what's going on in life, but sometimes it's like, what's the next step? You know, what do I need to do next? And um and everybody's different. I think that there's a lot of people out there that would need just the opposite. I I have friends that they're gonna get the same thing I get with wanting a million people around them. And I'm just not that way. So I'm I'm more of the the type that would be whatever I'm doing at some point, whether it's through the week, um, a couple times a month, whatever, I'm gonna get away where I'm just alone with my thoughts and trying to figure out um where I'm at, where I've been, more importantly, where I'm going.

Speaker 39:48

That's great. I love it. Um, thank you for being here very much. And I hope everyone will keep listening for more episodes just like this. Thank you, Michael.

Speaker 1 40:02

You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 40:07

Hey, everybody, thanks for listening. I did, of course, talk to all of my sons to see what they had to say about their dad, how they would introduce him. I went youngest to oldest. I ended up with three pages of notes. Michael was mostly right about work. None of them started or ended with what he does for a living, although the middle one did describe his dad as a self-made man in his industry, someone who carries weight because of the way he goes the extra mile and the way he interacts with people. They all called him a family man, selfless, someone who spent time with them doing what they loved. Our youngest talked about his humor and sarcasm, and also said that if introducing his dad, he would say, He raised me. Our oldest said his dad could fix anything, figure anything out, and is the first guy my son would call. He said Michael very intentionally moved from dad mode to being their friend as they got older. Listening to my sons describe their dad reminded me of a quote from Marilyn Robinson's housekeeping. She said, It's hard to describe someone you know so well. The boys didn't have any trouble describing their dad, but I felt like they didn't feel their words were enough. There is so much to any one person, it's hard to contain. My biggest takeaway was that Michael is in their lives the kind of dad and man that he intends to be. He makes the relationships in his life important, and he does it on purpose, just like he told all of us today.